To loom or not to loom?

I've been heading in this direction myself. I was drawn to the fact your using DH Lab cables.

I was looking for a reasonably priced USB cable from Streamer to DAC and ended up with DH Lab's Mirage. I wasn't expecting much difference to what I had, but against my expectations, it was noticeably different.

I then wanted to try more DH Labs so went for the Air CryobMatrix RCA ICs, and also the Reunion Ethernet.

All very nice and a reasonable price. I am going to try the speaker cables next. 

I've never made a conscious effort to go full loom, but I guess if you like what a particular brand's cables do for your system/enjoyment, makes a kind of sense to keep going.

My PCs are a mush mash of Triode Wire, NRG Custom Cables and Furutech; not sure I'll go that far, but I'll will going full DH Labs for signal cables

Should I look at consolidating each system to a specific brand and model of cables or is this a fool’s errand?

@audio_is_subjective64 I’m going with fool’s errand.

For speaker cables the right cable varies with the amplifier and loudspeaker. You’ll find tube amplifiers to be more sensitive in this regard. So a specific cable manufacturer may or may not have the right cable for you (and all speaker cables are compromises due to the physics involved, which is why you hear differences). Note that I said ’right’ instead of ’best’.

The better your preamp is at controlling the interconnect between the preamp and amp, the less artifact the cable will have. This is partially a function of the output impedance of the preamp but also the topology. The logical extension of this phenomena occurs with balanced line cables if the surrounding equipment supports the balanced line standard, known as AES48. Passive volume controls are incapable of controlling the cable so you’ll find them to be the most picky about which cable to use.

RCA cables, lacking any kind of connection standard are the most susceptible to changes in materials and construction technique. One rather large problem with them is the shield is often part of the audio path as it is used for the return current which is essential to create an electrical circuit. Noise in the environment can influence the signal as a result. This can be reduced by using a cable that employs a twisted pair for the signal and ground, with a shield around that, tied only at one end of the cable (usually the source end). In this way if noise impinges the cable its less able to affect the signal itself.

You can see that some manufacturers make cables like that and others don’t. So it can be tricky to find everything with one-stop shopping.

I suspect this is one of those darned, it depends questions.

I have been slowly migrating from all different brands of components to the same brand for everything over the last fifty years. In a way, this is a reflection of the industry. A great system in the 80’s required choosing the best of class from different manufacturers. Each brand had a really great component made by the founder and a bunch of mediocre ones… think Pass.

Over time I migrated to all components from Audio Research. They offer top of class components voiced exactly the same in all categories… and putting all these together is shockingly synergistic. In this situation a full loom seems logical, and in fact, in general is really good. There is a known synergy between audio research equipment and transparent cabling. But I still had great trouble with my amp power cord. I tried many different solutions until I found the audio quest hurricane.

So I think, it is system dependent.

@atmasphere I thank you for your input. I prefer Balanced AES48 but unfortunately not all component manufacturers subscribe as you do,. So it is a game of compromises.  I am using an unshielded RCA from DH from my phono section to my pre, noticed a more open sound from the shielded RCA I had in place. 

So I must ask as a mfr of both tube and GaN amplification what have been your experiences and are their brands and types of cables you prefer. I do find that the WW Mini Eclipse 8 speaker cables work very well on my tube gear and they are only 5 foot lengths, great buy from The Cable Co for $360.00 vs $600. 

@ghdprentice Thank you and I suspect you are right. I may just stand pat on IC’s and Speaker cables. May make some moves on PC.

I had a full loom of Groneberg Quattro Reference cables that Odyssey Audio sells.  My Odyssey amp and speakers were already wired with the cable from the factory so I figured why not. I bought both speaker cables and 5 pairs of interconnects.   I believed I had found the Holy Grail until 4-5 years later I swapped out one of the interconnects with an Acrolink cable for my Esoteric SACD player.  It was night and day difference, the treble was a bit more sparkly and the midrange seemed much more relaxed.  
 

I have removed all the Groneberg cables from both systems and now have a mix of cables that compliments each piece of gear I own.  The systems are much more satisfying now. 

@ghdprentice +1, I think it depends.

I have Shunyata power and Kimber speaker cables and interconnects.

I am very happy with where I am and don't expect to move towards 1 loom.  

@overthemoon So you never went the loom route. Thanks. 

So I must ask as a mfr of both tube and GaN amplification what have been your experiences and are their brands and types of cables you prefer.

@audio_is_subjective64 Because we made the first balanced line preamps and amps for home use it didn’t occur to us to not support the balanced standard. Because we do, the cable is really unimportant to the sound, because its the equipment that does the heavy lifting instead of the cables; IOW the equipment prevents the cables from having a coloration.

So we make up Mogami Neglex interconnect cables. The Mogami cables are not expensive and are a high quality cable intended for use in recording and broadcast. We put Neutrik connectors on the cables; Neutrik still makes the best XLR connectors out there. We make a balanced tonearm cable too which uses a low capacitance Mogami cable.

The balanced standard really works- I’ve put Mogami cable up against balanced ’high end audio’ cables that cost $1000.00/foot and had the Mogami come out on top.

@stereo5 thank you for your insight, you and @ghdprentice as well as Mr Ralph have me rethinking the loom theory. I am quite pleased with all my power cords and IC, though I am intrigued by the Analysis Plus line of cables. 

Many cables - signal & power - have been auditioned in my system over the years. I wasn’t convinced that a full loom was better.

That was then. Now, I’ve transitioned to a full loom of signal cabling by Synergistic Research - Atmosphere Series - upper tiers. Their approach is fairly unique. My system sounds the best it ever has.

To loom or not to loom?

An audio system needs to be fairly well tuned-up to appreciate the benefits of the upper tiers by any manufacturer.

Still, I can see holding on to any cables from another brand if they’re contributing to the quality of music.

_ _ _ _

I’m slowly transitioning to SR’s pc’s. The biggest impact has been with SR’s digital pc’s. They’re on to something. Since I stream 100%, this is a welcome addition.

My other PC’s are Transparent, Purist and Snake River Audio. They’re solid performers. No rush to replace them.

_ _ _ _

I’ve tried a LessLoss C-Marc pc and a LessLoss AES digital. Too sterile for me. YMMV

Kinda full loom…

I had all Acoustic Zen PCs and ICs. Krakatoa (preamp), Gargantua (DAC and amp), Absolute Copper Interconnects. The interconnects were the first ones in a system. 
Every time I added more AZ cables I got more of their “house” sound which is warm, inviting, lots of meat on the bone, big bass. But believe it or not, a set of Acoustic Zen Absolute Copper speaker cables that I borrowed from a friend were the straw that broke the camel’s back. It just tipped the scale so much into that warmth that the final result was the sound that was actually too dark. I didn’t like it.

Amp was Pass XA30.8. Speakers were Martin Logan Montis. 
 

@audio_is_subjective64 take it for what it’s worth but the bottom line is this is all components/room/synergy/preference dependent. 

@steakster Yes my milage did vary. Best power cables I have in my system are the 2 C-Marc EP in my digital front end with the LessLoss Firewire 640x on my DAC (LessLoss) and my Innuos Zenith MKIII. Using DH Labs USB and Zavfino Silver Dart Graphene Audio Interconnect (XLR) from dac to pre and pre to mono blocks. I do not have any LessLoss Interconnects. 

As I have both Digital and Analog front ends there is DH Labs and MELCO ethernet cables feeding the signal through the TeraDak T-S212, DH Labs USB feeding from Innuos to LessLoss DAC with Wyred4Sound USB ISO. Clear detailed not analytical or sterile sounding at all.  Analog is all DH Labs BL-1 phono cable and Silver Pulse cryo-treated, unshielded hybrid cable from the phono pre to my pre amp. 

I have 2 SR PC in my system but they may be the cables on the block for replacement, powering my mono blocks. 

@audphile1 Yes I get that. Thank you so much for your input.  I also feel that the IC's are  key in the middle of the cable chain. PC/IC/Speaker and that one doesn't need to spend tons to get a great sound in this chain. Synergy is key not cash. 

take it for what it’s worth but the bottom line is this is all components/room/synergy/preference dependent. 

A. wiring loom, is ’an assembly of electrical cables or wires which transmit signals or electrical power."

What kind of brainiac combines power cords, speaker cables and interconnects?

@fuzztone So thanks for the post. No most of the trade publications, sites and cable manufacturers are using this as a description for continuity and having one brand of cabling. for example from PTA and TMR. I know you are being literal and trying to be clever. Guess that backfired. Gibberish.

Triode Wire Labs Full Loom | REVIEW
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Complete Cable Loom Recommendations
[Editor’s Note: We’re pushing forward the idea of a cable “loom”–an entire complement of one brand of high-end audio cables, enough to wire an audio system–as the easiest way to determine differences between cables. These are the cable looms we have used in our systems and recommend to our readers.]

What’s In A Loom? Trying the ’All-Nordost’ Approach
FEB 15TH 2022 DUNCAN TAYLOR

@audio_is_subjective64 My goal or vision didn't start with a cable loom as an end goal. 

I did experiment with cables starting with speaker cable.  I had several brands and Kimber Kable Bifocal XL was a clear winner.

After I realized speaker cables made a difference I tried several interconnects.  I tried silver, copper and even a hybrid.  Kimber won again.

On power used Furman and tried Shunyata and noticed a difference in distribution then in power cables.  

I've heard Nordost and Transparent and believe there are several excellent options.  I also believe the incremental investment for me to get to 'one manufacturer' is not worth the money.  (And I can hear Homer Simpson saying "so far").

This summer I heard a Nordost "Loom" and the results were remarkable.  I owned the preamp, DAC/Streamer and amp they were using and I was floored on the dynamics, detail and finesse of the music.  

@overthemoon thank you.😎

The fact that you ask this tells that you have pretty strong OCD.  So if it makes you happy, do it.  Don't fight what you want to do. We are in this hobby for enjoyment.

Jerry

PS  I wouldn't do it, but if you go with a good brand you will have good results.  

+1 it depends.  Looms may create brand sonic consistency which may be lost when using multiple brands.  OTOH I prefer to shop by cable types: analog interconnects, digital/ethernet, power cords, speaker cables.

@carlsbad2 thanks for judging me based on a question. Gibberish I guess. 

Judging?  It's called insight.  I suppose you think OCD is an insult?  It is hard to name a highly successful person who doesn't have a significant dose of it.  It spawns hard work, drive, and great desire to succeed.

Jerry

No loom for me, especially this kind of salesmanship nonsense.

@carlsbad2 ADHD not OCD. 

@fuzztone Thanks, really insightful. 

Stated simply, my answer to your question would be to try as many different cables as you believe are necessary to satisfy your curiosity and budget, and then purchase and use the cables that you believe make your system sound its best.

At risk of losing my invitation to the audiophile Christmas party, I find this whole "loom" phrasing mildly amusing.  A loom is a tool or machine for weaving.  As a verb, it is used to describe something that appears large or threatening.  Apparently, the term "full loom" describes the width of a cloth that is equal to the full width of the loom, which somehow morphed into a full complement of audio cables from a single manufacturer.

I suspect the marketing department of a cable company came up with the usage of "full loom" in relation to audio cables in order to encourage buyers to purchase every possible cable in their system from one source (i.e., their company) with the idea that having a single cable from another manufacturer would certainly spoil the gestalt and ruin any possibility of coherent sound from the afflicted system.  The audiophile equivalent of a Jedi mind trick.  Colonel Potter would call it, "horse hockey."

I can sort of understand the reasoning for matching all analog interconnects from a single manufacturer, but the idea that ICs relate to SCs, PCs, or digital cables, seems to be a stretch.  I did not hear any specific sound quality benefit any of the times I used cables from only a single manufacturer. 

Well, that’s the way I’ve done it(not the power cables though).

My 1st loom was Straight Wire Crescendo’s and Straight Wire digital and phono IC’s.... Sounded great. Was very happy. I recently upgraded to a Townshend F-1 Fractal loom/IC’s and dig cables and wow, incredible difference. Much cleaner, fuller and vibrant sound.

I don’t see myself ever changing those cables but if I did, I’d loom it again.

@mitch2 Dont tell the automotive world that, they have been calling it a wiring loom for 100 years. Thanks. 

@vinylshadow thanks. 

Made my decision standing pat, System sounds wonderful and had the chance to listen to an $800k system and I am quite content with my $65k system. Sound fabulous for what I have in it. 
 

Thanks all that really contributed. 

 

All of my interconnects and speaker cables are Morrow Cable. All of my power cables are Furutech components that I put together myself. Of course I have nothing to compare them against but I am pleased with what I get from my system.

I have an all Cardas loom of Cygnus and Clear.

SR power cables 

heres the deal.  If you buy  a loom from a reputable manufacturer,

they are all good once you hit a certain price point 

Get a loom of the best level of cable you can afford 

and it will be rewarding

Good luck Willy -T

@1971gto455ho

Welcome to the gibberish club. Glad to have you in. We have many upstanding members like @carlsbad2 and those that have chosen to ignore this nonsense like @jasonbourne52

Though cleverness was no objective I guess we should have stuck to the only posted question. Sign me up for "fools errand."

All else is "backfire."

I have had entire looms of Audioquest, WireWorld,and ZenWave.At present ICs and SCs are Voodoo Audio with several brands of PCs.IMHO if there is enough variety of flavor, spice,tone,whatever in a manufacturer's lines a loom will work for anybody. Going with all one level of cable from a manufacturer,for example all Cardas Clear throughout imposes a particular house sound.But swapping out a PC here and an IC there for a Cygnus or Sky can fine tune everything to your liking. My personal preference is mostly silver cables with a copper cable here and there.

I have all sorts of cables making up my systems.

I have noticed is that there are a LOT of Cardas and Transparent full or mostly full loom lifetime happy campers.

In my unwashed opinion must of the good stuff is terrific and personal subjective subtle differences are one’s guide.

If I had started with room treatment, vibration control (and maybe DSP), then maybe the cable game might not have mattered as much? Nah; it all matters.

In over 30 years as an audiophile, I've always had a mix of different brands of cables in my systems.  Never all one brand.  This method works best for me.  For example:  Here's the mix of cables that I currently am using with incredible results

Speaker cables, and one of my power cables = Brand: JPS Labs, Supercondutor 3 and Aluminata.  

Interconnects, and my other two power cables= Brand: Audioquest, Pegasus XLR and Hurricane HC.

Ethernet cable= Brand: Shunyata, Sigma

Hope this helps.

Happy listening

Understanding that it may not always work out to use 1 loom of cable in your system, it's certainly something to shoot for.  The ideal is to have the same model from the same brand or perhaps at least the same geometry and materials within the same brand.  I know this sounds like conjecture, but I come to this point from years (41+ years professionally) putting this concept to the test.  Each and every time I've come from a mix and match cable configuration in a system and then move to the same brand/model (even if that model may not be viewed as the best in an absolute sense) the result is better.  The sound becomes more relaxed (less of a tendency toward nervousness or fatigue), more coherent, and simply more natural. I've wanted to be proven wrong through my experiences but simply haven't been.  A complete brand/model loom all the way!

The idea that all-from-same-manufacturer cables can be audibly superior (since such difference is not measurable mechanically, and hasn’t been demonstrated as real by way of consumer preference studies) vs. a mix in a hifi system assumes the given manufacturer is equally understanding and competent of the requirements for all stages of signal pathway, and also more so than any competitor. To me and the rules of probability, doubt is looming. For anything that’s not quantifiable or patented but “sounds better” to some folks, that implies (assuming it’s actually real) the tech is superior by luck of design, and when that luck must extend to different forms of interconnects equally, well, also unlikely.

I have “gone whole hog” or “gone all out” or whatever real world colloquialism one might see fit to use, with audio cables twice, and including the power cords once (and in that case, all of the kit chain’s power supplies were also from the same manufacturer).

Predictable audible difference was not to be found in my two anecdotal cases, but alas I’m one of those a folks who does value an audio blind test over blindly testing my wallet. To each their own.

You can’t enjoy the fruit without the loom, eh?

@mapman oh boy. 

You can’t enjoy the fruit without the loom, eh?

mapman

21,708 posts

03-07-2024 at 08:56am 

You can’t enjoy the fruit without the loom, eh?

Heh heh heh, could be I’m just too old to enjoy Loomy Tunes.

When you've got 6 pairs on the floor (5 front, 1 back), looming can become a trip hazard or a cat exercise gym.....although it's looming to become a necessity just to keep it all from looming into a nightmare...

Had enough? *LOL*

@benanders . you brought up Loomy Tunes...."Th th th th that's all, Folks!"

Within my 53 years of being involved with high end audio I have come to the conclusion that it's all a matter of trial and error without a solid answer that is always correct. Trust your ears and experiment, then go with what sounds the best to you. Sometimes a 100% loom of one product can produce too much of a good thing, and sometimes visa-versa.

....try as I might, I've never experienced too much of a good thing.....

Always run out of energy....eventually.....

Using a "looms" can be good for getting  base lines. From there trying cable changes between one pair of components at a time may suggest particular compatibility or incompatibility preferences between specific components. Not doing so could make correctly determinating ultimate cause and effect confusing. There might be unusual exceptions where specific components have unique considerations that might make the above inappropriate; Spectral comes to mind.

I concur with what lak posted. To me, each component stands on its own and the cables used will help it perform to its best. I have tried so many cables and combinations through the years.

That being said, since I no longer use a preamp, a separate dac, or a cd player, I run the signal straight from a Lumin X1 direct to my Michi 8 amps. So, at this point, I now do have one complete loom of all AQ cabling.

That is; from the wall AQ Dragon to my AQ 7000 PC, to the Lumin- AQ Dragon, to my amps- AQ Thunderbird, and speakers- AQ Thunderbird.

With my system now streamlined, I believe that keeping within the AQ family and the technology, there is a synergy with using this complete loom.

ozzy