Clodius, don't use the grill so you don't see the knots? I was surprise to see that as well when I first "saw" the GM in person, given how fanatic Sonus Faber is about aesthetic and finish this is considered a design flaw I guess. but I never run any speakers with grills, so it does not bother me. |
Both GH and GM uses Audio Technology midwoofer. Audio Technology is a new name of Skanning, so effectively they use similar drivers. Audio Technology might not make their own cones, instead they only make the coils, spider, and magnets and that's why Daveyf mistakenly think GM midwoofer is sourced from Dynaudio. I am 100% sure it's Audio Technology. How do I know? I have a spare driver.
I have owned just about every single Sonus Faber made including EA1, EA2, Cremona Auditor, Cremona, Extrema, Amati Homage, GH, GM, and some of the lower lines. To say Dynaudio T-330D is the best tweeter ever made indicates you have not heard what newer technology has to offer. I have lived with Extrema for years where T-330D was considered very well executed there. I had Extrema, Amati Homage, and GM all in the same room once and everyone walked away ranking Extrema lowest because of its top end deficiency. Lack of air, lack of micro dynamic, and lack of extension.
Scanspeak Revelator, even the old 9900 in Amati Homage was considered more detail than Esotar T-330D. The new Revelator is simply in a different league, by a long mile. When I owned GH, people liked the sound because it was coherent and smooth. Now I own GM, people LOVE the sound because it offer everything GH has to offer and much much more. I will even put Scanspeak Revelator tweeter up against ribbon, I also own Aerial 20T which has one of the best ribbon tweeter in the business, it's a modified Raven R-2 that cost $1k each.
GH reminds me of Roger LS3/5A, pleasant to listen to but you should know its limitation. GM reminds me of a BMW M3, an all purpose sports car that you can live on the edge. |
Daveyf, of course you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. Like you, the whole audiophile circle here thinks GM is significantly better than GH by a mile.
As of which tweeter is the best, there is no end to that debates. I have spoken to Bobby because I owned Merlin VSM before, reason why he is still using antique Esotar T-330D is he believes in 2-way design and he can't move up to the new Esotar2 which has better extension at the expense of not going as low like Esotar1. On top, Dynaudio is not selling the Esotar2 to anyone, so Bobby is stuck with his old design which he has tried to perfect for 10+ years. Can you imagine Bobby switching tweeter now and start this whole VSM, VSM SE, VSM M, VSM MM, VSM MMe evolution all over again?
I have lived with Esotar1 for 7 years, from SF EA1, Extrema, Merlin VSM, and Dynaudio C5, I think I know a thing or two about Esotar. in fact, I was like you who used to defend Esotar until I open my mind and start listening to other designs. If you love Esotar so much, you should get a pair of Dyn C5 to hear what Esotar can really do. |
Daveyf & Flg2001, you should be able to find Guarneri driver source easily on Stereophile reviews, both models were reviewed before and drive details were clearly mentioned. |
If I can generalize.
People who like GH prefers a more romantic presentation, they would oppose to any type of hard dome tweeter including Be or diamond.
I was in that camp for years, I have owned GH, EA1, Extrema, Dyn C5 for over 10 years combined but decided to try a different "tweeter" for a change. I later found a new dimension in sound which I like as well. Like what Pinkus said, it's a matter of taste. I used to hate Wilson, but now listening to some newer Wilson can be an enjoyment. I also love Be and diamond tweeter now as well. |
Trust your own ears is what I always tell people, you system should please yourself, not others.
If you have a chance to hear a super high resolution system consisting of diamond/ribbon/Be tweeters at length, even better if you can live with them for months, and go back to hear an older silk dome, you will know what I am talking about.
I am super sensitivie to brightness/harshness of any kind, I sold my Wilson WP 5.1 after owning them a month for that exact reason. I still like Esotar based speakers because they are very easy to listen to, but when compared to newer and better tweeters Esotar is showing its age. Sorry, technology in mechanical, electrical, and psychoacoustic engineering have advanced very far in the past 20 years. I have to admit diamond tweeter is very seductive, as much as I used to hate B&W (sold 802N in no time too), the new B&W diamond are very capable speakers as well as other diamond speakers like Tidal, Avalon, and Marten Design.
An older design that masks out micro dynamic and details though pleasant to listen to can't be called world class when compared to the current SOTA. Not saying GH is garbage, it's far from it, but GM simply does more in recreating music and that's a fact. |
Daveyf,
I do try as many piece of gears as I can just to learn each and everyone's strength and weakness. I only keep what I like, the beauty of Audiogon is I can afford to try more gears w/o losing much money and only keep what I like. and yes, I like GM and therefore I decided to keep them. like buying stock, I learn to not marrying to your stereo equipments and use your ears to decide what to keep.
I suggest you do a bit more reading on the pro and con of Dynaudio Esotar, even call some speaker designers and chat with them including those who do not use Esotar. keep in mind there are no perfect drivers, but some are better than others.
reason why drivers are so important in speaker design, it's like the ingredient of a main course and you can't expect to make beef taste like chicken. I almost want to say I can successfully identify Dynaudio speaker blinded folded, afterall I have owned them a long time and know them intimately well.
have fun listening and shopping. |
Esotar is a dated design from 30 years ago, so much so Dynaudio updated it to keep up with the competition when Evidence was introduced and still it can't compete with Scanspeak Ring Radiator or other newer technology. Just look around, are there any manufactures using Esotar to design their state of the art speakers now?
Lots of ferrofluid to cool the driver is a good thing for professional monitoring where they play 100+ db all day, for audiophile application where micro/macro detail, transparency, and other factors are equally or more important than just high power handling, Esotar falls short.
I have owned 30+ pairs of speakers in the past 20 years, I sure listened with my ears, and now I also learned to listen with my brain too. Something that sounds good but far from truth DOES NOT equal to good sound.
And yes, GH uses Esotar and GM use the top end Ring Radiator, not the cheap Vifa tweeter. |
some of my old favorites:
Acoustic Energy AE1 Signature, lovely midrange and imaging
Dynaudio Confidence 5, lovely detail and midrange, one of the best bass defintion
Sonus Faber Amati Homage, lovely and airy top end couple with very organic midrange
Sonus Faber Extrema, lovely dynamic and midrange
Usher BE-718, just lovely especially for the price
currently own:
Aerial 20T, still experimenting with amplification but they have serious potential. top end is to die for
Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento, sweet/delicate/airy high
some worthy mention that impressed the hack out of me during audition:
Analysis, planar speaker like Apogee
Tidal Acoustic, discovered them 3 years ago, almost bought the Piano Diacera but very high price tag
Usher BE-10/20, one of the best transient and leading edge attack I ever heard, a bargain
Marten Coltrane, incredible speed and resolution
many big names didn't impress like they should, could be the room or upstream components. |
you probably know I am a SF fan too, otherwise I would not have owned so many SF speakers in my life. all Franco's works are masterpiece.
I owned GH briefly, it was a speaker I always wanted to own for its look, sound, and reputation. it was overall more coherent than Extrema to my ears except the lowest extension and weight, but GH's ability, or lack of, to play at decent volume in a medium size room had me sold them very quickly. I don't listen loud, but GH just does not move enough air. so as sweet as the midrange is, GH did not work for me. Esotar1 is a fuller sounding tweeter than most, the lower treble is quite full body so combined with the Skaning woofer, the sound was very sweet and addictive. if I have a smaller room, I think I could have lived happily with GH.
On to GM. the new drivers are more dynamic. I am not only referring to macro dynamic which GM does better, micro dynamic is also improved. devil is in the detail, GM protrates details very effortlessly partially due to better micro dynamic. the new woofer also does midrange texture better, I just heard more of everything and Sonus Faber's strength in reproducing string is best reproduced by GM. when you said a certain magic was missing, maybe GM is just not as sweet, not as full body, or not as "colored". I am not saying GM is neutral, my Aerial 20T is much more neutral in comparison. but GM vs. Amati Homage, Extrema, Cremona, or GH, I will rank GM as the least color.
I can live happily with either speakers, but if I have to choose between the two again, I will pick GM for having better balance of sweetness and neutrality. Amati Homage vs. Amati Anniversario is similar in that sense. as good as Amati Homage was in midrange and up, the new one was better w/o sounding like a Wilson Watt/Puppy and that's progress in my book. |
