Dear vac man: Very nice audio system you own and very nice review you made, congratulations for both!!!!, you are very good writer/reviewer.
I always try to put things on the " right " perspective ( for me and IMHO ) to understand it and to take benefit of/on it.
I own/owned and heard all the cartridges named here including your beloved SG and my experiences about were a little different from yours.
First I have to tell that as important is the matching in tonearm/MC-MM cartridge as important is the Phonolinepreamp ( maybe more critical that what we think ) where the cartridge signal must pass through.
I don't know which were/are the Phono stages-line ones that you use to heard your MC cartridges but I can see due to your comments about that no one made/make the right " honors " to those MC cartridges.
I can see too that you speak about tracking and refer to MC and MM cartridges as well the SG but I don't read anything about your MM cartridges that you own or owned. In reference to tracking I'm with some of the best MM cartridges over any other one ( unfortunately not today models. ) and you can read something about here: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667
I heard the SG ( I have to say that with oly 30 hours on use. ) in a very very nice top quality home audio system and my first impression was: WOW!!! but after hearing for some time and after comeback from the initial and nice " surprise " I just don't like what I'm hearing specially on the high frequencies and a little in the un-natural tonal balance of its performance, I'm a little sensitive on both frequency extremes and after a time my ears were " tired " of that SG sound ( maybe because that SG was almost new . ) that was not analog like or music live one it was more like a digital source: a good one digital source ( DVDA ).
Fortunately ( for me ) I asking to change to a normal MC cartridge ( in this case was the Lyra Olympos-Essential phonlinpreamp. ) and even than the Olympos was not perfectly matched to that Phonolinepreamp and that I don't know for sure if the Schroder tonearm was the best tonearm match for it suddenly the " lights " goes ON again: overall no contest. Next day after heard the Olympos switched very brief to the SG and IMHO was a truly deception.
I always said that the RIAA eq deviation makes a great differences in a MC or MM quality performance and only when you hear cartridges in a phono stage with a RIAA eq deviation lower than 0.1db can you understand how important is that subject.
You have to take in count here that the RIAA eq. is a curve where any frequency deviation build colorations on almost three music octaves and this is IMHO what you was hearing in your MC cartridges through your past phono stages: high RIAA eq deviations, not the cartridge design.
IMHO the SG performance in its today status it can't even the very best MC/MM cartridges when these cartridges are in the right tonearm and with the right Phonolinepreamp, this means in even condition/circumstance than the SG matching set-up.
The SG sounds different? absolutely but IMHO and with all my respect to you and the designer: not better.
Anyway, a very learning and interesting review.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear friends: Now I can understand, between other things, why the SG sound quality performance is different, please read the page 13 on this Italian review where you can see that the SG frequency response does not mimic the RIAA eq., there are frequency deviations that " build " those differences that I heard.
We have to remember that what is in the recording follow the RIAA eq. standard and on playback and to be near to the recording the cartridge/phono stage: MC/MM or SG must mimic it, this is not happening with the SG and that's why the differences that we can hear.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Sorry, here it is the link: http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/article.pdf
I understand that the deviation is over 1db but I'm not totally sure about.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear friends: There is something " curious " and very interesting, whereas al the audio industry are working on better audio items: better amplifiers/preamps/CDP/SACD/DVDA/phono stages/MM-MC cartridges/speakers/room treatment/cables/racks/footers/recording manufacturers/electronic parts(passive and active ones )etc/etc with lowering distortions/flat frequency/lower colorations to improve the quality sound music reproduction and to be near/true of what is is the recording the SG Soundsmith device is the only audio item that in porpose alter/corrupt the frequency response that comes in the recording " telling " to the whole audio industry chain that all of them are wrong!!!!! including you.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Dave: According with what we can see in fig.4 the SG frequency response it is not only not following the RIAA curve ( with small deviations like other MC/MM cartridges ) but IMHO it takes a totally different " path ": it is an equalization over the RIAA eq that from my point of view is unacceptable with the today RIAA standards in the recordings that is the way how almost all the LPS that you, me and anyone else have were recorded.
IMHO the SG response needs a different recording standards!!!!!!!! and nothing is wrong with that if the RIAA accept to make the changes that the SG needs: of course that this is out of question/order.
Now I really understand why sounds to me so un-natural.
IMHO it is useless to make comparisons between the SG and MC/MM cartridges: both are totally different from the point of view of what information give us each one: the MC/MM according with the RIAA eq which with the recording was recorded and the SG an equalized information out of the RIAA standards, no I have to pass on the SG in his today status. Now if the designer decide to go with the RIAA standard and not with his own ones then things could change for the better but again in its today status the SG IMHO is a device for other circumstances ot for play LPs.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul.
Dave, yes I heard it with its own preamp I think is the only way to hear it. |
Dave: +++++ " ( with small deviations like other MC/MM cartridges ) " +++++
sorry: like other phono stages.
regards and enjoy the music. raul. |
Dear Dcstep: The response was not at the cartridge but at the preamp.
Dave, Soundsmith knows and design a device that not conforms according to the RIAA standard:it is an EQUALIZER over the RIAA eq..
For anyone can/could hear what really is on the recording that recording must be/been recorded with the inverse SG " curve ", IMHO it is the only way to hear the SG in a decent and trusty way.
In the SG today status IMHO what any one is hearing throught it is a wide/heavy make up ( fake ) on the recording signal: far from the true recording signal and certainly totally out of the RIAA standards that is the norm/rule.
Btw, I heard the SG through Vetterone great system in its own Soundsmith preamp, it is the only way to do it.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Peter: I don't want that you can/could think that my posts on your SG device are because I'm against you or against your device,no I'm not and I'm not questioning the SG device by it self design and has nothing to do with 0.1db figures elsewhere.
You fix at least two of my cartridges where you made an excellent work and I support you about here an elsewhere on your re-tipping very high quality " performance ", no doubt about.
The SG subject is really simple: I'm not saying that it is a bad device ( I don't like what I heard in the same manner that are people that like it, it is only a priorities subject. ) or that your design work is bad too: NO, what I'm saying is that IMHO and from what I heard and read your SG does not conforms according to the RIAA eq standard and there is nothing wrong with that because you or any one else can/could design anything you want.
Subject is that almost all the people ( including some of the SG owners. ) have questions about and these questions needs answers and the best source about is you.
Maybe you don't want to give us ( or to me ) a precise answer but IMHO it will be healthy to do it: there is nothing to hide about, or is it?, why to leave to the controversy your very well made SG design? don't you think that your today and future customers deserve to know what is happening " around "?
Again, thank you in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Slowlearner: +++++ " Attacking products is not only counter-productive.... " +++++
first than all I'm not attaking the SG, what I'm saying and confirm here is that IMHO it does not conform according the RIAA eq standard: I respect your opinion that it do it but everything you have in your web site and what you posted here tell nothing precise about.
All the " history/facts " that you posted on the RIAA response deviations with changes in VTF or VTA or with a different tonearm is our " bread of everyday " and this is not the subject because what you are saying is that why take care on the RIAA eq. deviation when there are so many deviations all over the audio chain, well that is a point of view that I respect but certainly I don't agree because I think that we must care the audio signal at any single link in the audio chain trying to loose the less and adding the less too.
I know that your trade-offs and music sound reproduction priorities are unique and different from the ones I support but things are that I heard the SG in a very good audio system ( with low system distorions ) and I heard there against a MC cartridge with the same LPs and from that very first moment, and way before I knew that the SG does not conforms with the RIAA standard eq ( I know/understand this in the last 48 hours ), I don't like the overall SG performance against other MC/MM cartridges that I heard and I told this to the SG owner inclusive I remember that we play with a LP that are one of my reference LPs ( Janis Ian/P. Barber ) trying to hear something that the SG was loosing in the HF, even Steve modified a little the VTA and things improve a little but never with the definition that I'm accustom on it but this is not the whole history about, only an example. Today I undertand why the SG has not that HF definiton I'm talking about and why its performance is so un-natural.
I don't take care why its sound is so different till two days ago when I made some research about.
+++++ " it was +/- 1dB from 50 Hz to 12K in conformation with RIAA " +++++
Peter, you made an " assault " to my intelligence, common sense and knowledge with that statement.
first the RIAA eq standard frequency range figure is : 20hz to 20khz not the range you measure.
second are you saying that a very high ( IMHO always ) 2 ( two ) db deviation goes in conformation with RIAA when almost all the phono stages out there that conforms according to the RIAAA standard are in no more than 0.5 db?, from your point of view I have to assume that if in the future any other different " cartridge " device with say: 5-10 db on RIAA deviation can/could conforms with it?, my God!
Peter IMHO if exist an audio link where every tyni frequency deviation is showing it is on the phono stage through its curve RIAA eq. deviation where any single frequency deviation affects almost three octaves!!!!!, you can hear deviation on the 0.1db range ( at least ) and you are telling me that 2db is the way to go but more important that this is that you say that comforms with the RIAA eq. standard !! ??????????????
Here it is a link where another person that I respect ( like you ) and that I think is very " responsible " and with a high knowledege about and he was asking ( in different words ) and questioning almost the same I'm and from my point of view it does not matters to ask because if we don't ask how we can learn or be sure on anything?: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1201835625&openflup&13&4#13
Peter I don't have any single/simple/minute attitude to attack you in anyway so don't put on " defense ", I'm only trying to have things in the right perpective ( Dan: believe it or not ) because at this moment my " common sense " still tell me that the SG is an additional source device but not an alternative to other MC/MM cartridges, I will consider it an alternative to MC/MM cartridges when your design conforms correctly in a precise way with the RIAA eq. standard.. Peter why don't try it, seems to me that that could be great and a very good alternative.
Peter, one way or the other almost all of us are in the same " boat/ship " and we are looking for almost the same main quality audio music sound reproduction performance targets.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Kirkus: I'm absolutely in agree with you and I applaud too the Soundsmith effort ( this is what the audio industry needs to grow up ) but unfortunately that is not my subject, let me explain in a time.
Vac_man, I'm not questioning you about your preference on the SG device and I'm not questioning too your lovely review about.
Vac_man/Kirkus: what I'm questioning is that is not fair for the MC/MM cartridges to be compared with the SG device where the frequency response in any/same recording is totally different and this fact comes ( according with my research that including the Peter words/web-site ) because the SG device IMHO does not follow the RIAA rules about: that's all.
Vac_man, it is curios that you mentioned the Chateaubriand that is our favorite french saucer/food and I'm sure that you like it because its Bearnese sauce ( following the " rules " ) and along a Chateau Lafite. Vac_man, I don't want to imagine the chateaubriand with dutch sauce instead that unique bearnase one.
Btw, all the recordings that you name it are some of my references too.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Darkmoebius: Yes, I agree: overall/whole of course that we can compare, why not?
Maybe I go to in deep in the subject and I could miss something in the middle.
regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Dcstep: I'm thinking seriously about not for say the SG is wrong but to hear a SG design along/according the RIAA standard.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Vac_man: If you really like the french " cousine " look for " Almorricane prawns " along a Mersault: " audio heaven ".
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Darkmoebious: ++++ " it might be impossible to accurately detect +/- 1-2dB RIAA deviations from room interactions in real world listening... " +++++
I agree with you when that frequency deviation is at one and only discrete frequency but you have to remember that the RIAA standard is a curve and when exist a frequency deviation at any point in the curve that frequency deviation it is not any more a discrete frequency but a deviation that affects other adjacent frequencies ( between two-three octaves and their harmonics. ) and this fact is the whole problem and certainly you can hear it.
If like you say you have a high resolution system/room, IMHO you can hear RIAA deviations as small like 0.2-0.1 db, you can hear the coloration due to that small frequency deviation. I know that many people does not cares about but I know too that are other people ( like me ) that cares about.
I think that each one of us have differences in what each one is looking for, you say: +++++ " Maybe it's not fair to compare MM/MC with SC when it comes to arguing strict adherence to standards or specifications, but it absolutely fair to compare them when consumers are simply interested in pure musical satisfaction. " +++++
well this is true and I agree for the people that accept that part of the statement: " pure musical satisfaction ", well the difference with me is that I'm looking too that " musical satisfaction " from what is in the recording with almost no alterations and that's why I always say that we have/must to preserve the cartridge signal adding the less and loosing the less. Yes, I know that my targets are not only specials ( like each one of you ) but very strict when other people are more " easy " about, certainly I'm not " easy " and my quest for the " audio/music heaven " is a very hard one but I can tell you a very fun and learning one.
IMHO I think that trying to share my experiences on it is something that can help some audio people and I understand too that other people dislikes about and attack it, such is life.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Vac_man: Taking the Flyingred posts o the SG subject IMHO are not so much " precise/conclusive ". That post on 22 November: " the limitations of the magnetic motor circuit in most moving coil cartridges, which softens the presentation. "++++
IMHO is not exactly what is happening, the limitations comes not from the MC cartridge ( like he point out ) but from his phono stage performance.
You agree with that Flyingred statement and IMHO too your phono stage is the main culprit about not the MC/MM cartridges.
This is another Flyingred post: " What the Strain Gauge cartridge does uniquely is track better......I believe this is due to the very low effective moving mass " +++++
here too the statement is imprecise ( for say the least ), the moving mas is only one of the parameters for a good cartridge tracking others very important and critical are: compliance, tonearm/cartridge match, suspension type, et, ec., so the SG device is not unique on that regard, there are a lot of cartridges that are better trackers than the SG.
+++++ " has an inherent roll off of 6 dB/octave. Mr Ledermann has made an engineering decision that the cartridge's frequency response is sufficiently close to the RIAA curve that it does not require equalisation within the preamplifier. " +++++
this is the main subject/problem on what we are argueing: " sufficiently close... that does not require equalisation within the preamplifier " +++++
this statement is un-true/false because the SG frequency response it is not only close but far from the RIAA curve.
+++++ " On many LPs, The Voice runs the Strain Gauge very close.... " +++++
and that fact happen with a non top flight phono stage, IMHO with a top flight phono stage things could be the reverse easy.
So, IMHO your assumptions on MC/MM cartridge quality performance like the ones from Flyingred and other SG owners are not " conclusive " ( for say the least ) due that some of you never heard MM/MC cartridges in the right phono stage: +++++ " and I think that almost everyone who has heard the SG cartridge in a high-end system with an excellent amplifier and excellent full-range speakers has been blown away by the clarity, the frequency response, the speed, the delicacy, the decay...... " ++++++
this is what you posted on the SG and I can tell you that if you do the same with a MC/MM cartridge ( including " excellent phono stage " ) you be blow away on its quality performance that IMHO beats the one from the SG device.
Vac_man, IMHO we have to put " things " in the right overall perspective ( not necessary my perspective but we need one. ) to be fair and compare orange VS orange.
I'm not against the SG device ( I never write here or on other thread about that the SG device is a bad one, a bad design or that comes from a bad manufacturer: NO, because these are not the main subject. ) but I don't agree to compare oranges VS cars.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Vac_man: +++++ " It just seems really odd to me that anyone who purports to be knowledgeable in this area would point to the RIAA equalisation curve as the embodiment of perfection ... " +++++
odd or not, with compromises or not the RIAA standard is the rule/law ( like it or not ), to say something against it is like if you say that is " odd " the law against: rob/kill/rape/etc, etc,. Vac_man the law is the law: like it or not: it does not matters what you, me or any one else think about , period.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear vac_man: I posted because I receive questions or references for what I post and have to answer.
+++++ " in the production of a preamplifier that would be rendered obsolete by the SG cartridge. " +++++
no one phono stage ( including yours ) can be obsolete till the RIAA association support the today RIAA standard curve, so that statement has no foundation and it is not the issue, the main subject is more " deep " and maybe I don't or can't explain in the right way and that's why so many posts about: because I read what the people posted and their answers are different from what I'm trying to explain, I'm talking on one subject and everyone ( including you ) talk on others topics but almost no one posted on the main subject: where is the misunderstood/non-understanding?
+++++ " No other cartridge in the world has as small an effective moving mass as the SG cartridge. That is a fact, not an opinion. As to its tracking ability, everyone I know who owns a SG cartridge -- and this includes people who are among the most knowledgeable and experienced in the world when it comes to analog -- agrees that no other cartridge comes even close in tracking " +++++
IMHO maybe some of that people does not hard enough cartridge samples ( specially MM ones ) that are top trackers. Vac_man, in one of my reference LP I try the G device and I was surprised that can't resolve ( high frquencies) in a precise manner the sound of cymbal, this was in an almost perfectly SG set-up, even the owner made a VTA change to see if could be better, things improve a little but not at the right " level ", this could be a tracking issue or that the SG is not resolving/precise on that frequency range when other cartridges ( MM/MC ) in the same track are really good.
I'm sorry to disturb you with my posts but you can be sure that all of them are in good shape and not trying to slam any one: this is not the subject., why is so difficult to understand the main point and its critical whole importance?
Btw, IMHO I'm train to " understand " almost any audio system ( listening with one-two of the LPs that I use like reference. ) in no more than 20-30 minutes at 90-95%, specially a good audio system. Like anything in audio each one of us have different grade/position in the learning curve for different subjects.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Mapman: +++++ " Some of those who hear it will probably like it, some not.
Doesn't every piece have some small tonal coloration to some extent? If it were perfectly flat, does that alone determine the value? It seems insignificant to me. " +++++
that's why you have what you have and deserve ( audio system quality performance ) and I have what I have and deserve.
Any one choose its own " road ": good, wrong, bad, regular, etc, etc. Obviously your " road "/targets are different from mines and nothing wrong with that.
I think that overall you and me like many other people are looking for musical satisfaction through our each one home audio system but " musical satisfaction " have differences for you, me and other people. Like I posted I'm looking for that " musical satisfaction " at near perfect performance and I try very hard about.
Mapman, do you think that we design/build the Phonolinepreamp that I use just for fun?, no we made/make it because we understand the critical job and importance in the analog quality performance of that audio item and what I already try it ( SS, Tube and hybrid. ) don't permit to grow-up and achieve one of my mains targets: to be truer to the recording. Right now we are finishing our design/build tonearm, just for fun?: no but because I need a better tonearm to achieve my goals.
We start in the phono cartridge design and we have several options ( more than 50, including strain gauge one. ), just for fun? certainly not but because we want to grow-up and improve what we have right now.
In all these " item intents " we are right on focus: truer to the recording, and with this in mind we design trying to achieve that target loosing/adding the less on the whole audio chain.
The SG device on subject that I heard and that does not like me, maybe the " like " word is not the more precise, or sounds " different " give me the opportunity to made a little of research about to find why are people that like and why are people that does not like it and at the same time to know a little more on the strain gauge design that is one of our cartridge alternatives in our self cartridge design and what I find was so easy: its frequency response does not conforms with the RIAA standard curve. Well, our cartridge design ( any ) will conform with the RIAA standard curve, no doubt about. I like to grow-up in the right way.
Btw, we already have a self TT mat design that we are testing and that works wonderful!.
Like the Vac_man example about food: there are people that likes lobster along Mersault and other people that likes along tap water. I love mersault, do you?
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Mapman: Yes, Mersault is a French white wine: something very special, " refined ", delicious and very expensive too.
You posted: +++ " It seems insignificant to me. " ++++
like in other life areas sometimes the " insignificant "/small things could makes the difference, specially in audio.
Take a look: one and only one " insignificant " distortion/deviation certainly could not makes almost any difference in our home audio system but our HAS is more complex than that and it exist at least 100 of " opportunities " ( all over the audio system chain ) where the signal have that " insignificant " distotion/deviations and if you add one " insignificant " here, one " insignificant " there, other " insignificant " over-there, one " insignificant "..., and one other more and more....!, then what do you have at the end?: a SIGNIFICANT ( audible for any one but a deaf one. ) distortions/deviations/colorations in your home audio system performance.
So my common sense say to me that I have to avoid ( try to leave at minimum. ) all those " insignificant " distortions/deviations everywhere/anywhere in the audio chain.
I know that it is a hard effort but I can tell you and can tell to everyone that the reward is always worth to do it.
IMHO this is a way to be better, this is a way to grow-up in the right direction and this is the way: to have fun to learn and to really enjoy the music recording performances in a way different manner.
You don't have to agree it will be better to try it.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear Mapman: +++++ " Same true with Mersault I am sure. Does everyone who drinks it like it best or consider it to be closest to perfection? I'm sure it is quite exquisite, but I have yet to find anything that floats everyone's boat similarly to the nth degree even if of the utmost quality. " +++++
like almost anything in life we have to " learn " how we can appreciate " things " ( like wine ), how we can taste it and what " to taste " and IMHO I can tell you that in the very first moment that you finally " appreciate" the Mersault quality then: there is NO RETURN and at that very first moment you will enjoy it and I'm sure that you will be looking to find/hunt something better ( not different but better. ) and if you try " hard " maybe you could " catch-up ".
We have <( all of us ) to learn to appreciate the different range performance quality levels in audio and like the Mersault when you " taste " it there is NO RETURN.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Dear jazdoc: +++++ " difficult to believe that adherence to the RIAA standard is the ONLY parameter important to cartridge performance. " +++++
absolutely not but if that is what you understand through my posts then I fail to explain in a more precise manner ( sorry for that )or IMHO you simple do not understand nothing about or maybe you want to " hit " anywhere.
Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |