@pindac,
I assume you are preparing 90 mg/300 mL = 0.03%. There is an inconsistency in the document (that I will fix in the next ed.), while Para IX.6.a states "...for manual cleaning 0.01-0.02% would be recommended.", Para III.EU/UK.a) states: "...to obtain about a 0.04% solution.". So, your 0.03% is right in the middle and is fine. In the next edition Para IX.6.a will state "...for manual cleaning 0.02-0.04% would be recommended."
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@keegiam,
VPI HW17 - nice score. As far as Ronxs device - there are no video's, two options - while the platter is not turning - energize the unit and circle around the record for a couple of rotations (few secs) about 1" above the record. Otherwise with the platter rotating (but not playing) energize the unit about 1" above the record and move back&forth between outer & inner groove. Don't over think this. |
@mijostyn, The unit you are talking about is the
HumminGuru | All-in-One Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner.
HumminGuru | All-in-One Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner by Happywell — Kickstarter. Is it going to be better than the Degritter - no. Its a lower frequency 40kHz unit and using very little water it cannot be very powerful, and it has no filtration capability and you have to refill for each use. Is ultrasonic better than manual or vacuum-RCM - technically no, but it eliminates the user as being a variable, and as @whart so nicely captures - "method is more important to me than the particular machinery involved". But, for many it will be very convenient and much quieter than a vacuum RCM; reliability is TBD. Also, for 'dirty' records you would still want to pre-clean with a manual process like the Spin Clean (as you say) or vacuum-RCM. I know the drying process will be convenient, but not sure of how well it will filter out ambient dust and rack drying can be better then blowing ambient dust into the record. My one concern with the
HumminGuru is that it is going to significantly expand the user base of ultrasonic record cleaning, and people are going to experiment. You can bet that they are going to try isopropyl alcohol and recognizing that IPA at 20% is very flammable and vapors are explosive - and the device is not explosion proof - who is going to light themselves or blow themselves first. |
@billstevenson & @whart,
Hey guys thanks for the compliments. Bill Hart, Bill Stevenson and I have conversated over at the VPI forum. I am working on the "Second Edition" to the paper, and so far have added 25 pages of new info - its about the lessons learned and further; deeper research into some areas to better understand the why. For my own cleaning - for mixing chemicals I now just use disposable pipettes - they are cheap and easy to use
moveland 5ML Transfer Graduated Pipettes Plastic Essential Oils Dropper - 100 PCS: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific. For those that do not use a vacuum-RCM (or blow dry), like a Spin Clean or full manual, this cleanroom sponge sucks up water like crazy, leaves no residue, and is cheap -
PVA Clean Room Sponges, Wipes, and Mops (super-cool-products.com). I use the sponge to remove DIW only, squeeze out if necessary and store damp/wet - if it dries it will dry hard as cardboard - but will rehydrate. I have cleaned >50 records and the sponge is fine. Then I do a final light wipe with the Kinetronics Anti-Static Tiger Cloth
Anti-Static Tiger Cloth | kinetronics; and put the record in the rack, and by the time I have cleaned the next record - the 1st is dry and ready to resleeve. Take care, Neil |
@keegiam, For a hands-off RCM, that will clean/dry automatically, there are currently only three units in manufacture available that I know of. Which cleans the best - they will all do a decent job. Can you get better automated cleaning - yes; but not in the same footprint, and not with the automated drying and therefore not with the same push-here convenience. 1. Degritter - list price ~$2995 -
Record cleaning machine that is easy to use - Degritter. This is the newest design. It uses a 120-kHz ultrasonics for cleaning. It has received pretty much universal praise and the various forums discuss very strong customer support. 2. Clear Audio DOUBLE MATRIX PROFESSIONAL SONIC list price $5995 clearaudio electronic GmbH - double matrix professional SONIC, deep record cleaning with sonic. This device uses sonics to vibrate brushes. It appears to be very well built and is provided with a 3-yr warranty. Note that
Clear Audio will void the warranty if you use other than their no-foam cleaning solution. 3. Audiodesk - list price $4495 - generally on sale at $3995 -
Home - Audiodesksysteme Gläss GmbH
. If you read the forums, there is some debate as to how much ultrasonics are actually used for cleaning; or whether it is mostly using brushes to do the cleaning. This unit has seen quite a number of design changes with the latest being 2020. Other designs such as the KL audio record cleaner that use ultrasonics are no longer in manufacture. Overall, as any automated clean/dry devices, they can be quite sophisticated, and some such as the
Audiodesk do have significant life cycle cost associated with replacement pads & rollers; the Degritter has replacement fluid filters but they are very low cost (simple porous plug). Given the prices, decent customer support and vendor stability (will they stay in business) is highly recommended. Given the prices above, you can see where the Chinese made HumminGuru at what will likely sell for about $399 (import fees not included) will be very appealing, And, for people who in the past have just used a Diskwasher pad or equal, it will likely be quite a revelation; how well it actually cleans notwithstanding. But, recall that for every use, you will have to refill the HumminGuru (and the fluid is not filtered - you can collect and filter - but so much for convenience), and assuming the fans have filters - you will have device maintenance and life cycle costs; service life notwithstanding. |
When you are using surfactants for the final clean step, and you are not going to do a final rinse, you can do it, but the surfactant and its concentration has to be near perfect to get a near residue-free surface. In my discussion above, 0.01% tergitol which is equal to 100 ppm (or 100 mg/L) will achieve a surface tension of 30 dynes/cm. If you were to leave 2 mL on the surface to dry, you would leave a residue of 0.2 mg which is essentially insignificant. Now this assumes a clean tank, but most good DIY setups are filtering the tank.
But, if you are using who knows what at who knows what concentration, you are asking for trouble if you are not going to rinse.
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This site sells 132-kHz units -
CleanerVinyl Ultrasonic Record Cleaning. I know of at least person that uses their 40-kHz unit for pre-clean and then the 132-kHz unit for final clean. The individual has some physical limitations and this setup can pretty much clean anything. 1. Step 1 - 40kHz; use the Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.05 to 0.1%; for your 6000 mL tank that is 3-6 mL (no benefit for >6 mL/0.1%). For his 6000 mL tank he just adds 60-70 drops. This concentration will develop a wetting solution and micelles that will provided detergency. When he removes the record - gives it a few seconds to drain into the tank. As a wetting solution it will drain very quickly - this will minimize carry-over to the 132kHz tank. 2. Step 2 - 132kHz; use the Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.01%; for his 6000 mL tanks that is 0.6 mL - to keep it simple just use 10 drops. For the 132kHz this is the final polish and the amount of Tergitol 15-S-9 is only to achieve a 'wetting' solution. You want the US and low surface tension fluid to do the work - he should not need detergency at this level. |
@keegiam, The disadvantage with the NG 1.5 is that you cannot work the surface of the record with cleaner/brush and this is noted in this review comparing it to a VPI
Record cleaning machines - Clearaudio Smart Matrix, Nitty Gritty 1.5 and VPI HW 16.5 [English] (tnt-audio.com). The benefit of the VPI (and similar units) is that you can apply steps as follows: 1. Pre-clean dirty records with say Alconox Liquinox at 0.5% - vacuum but do not fully dry. 2. Rinse pre-cleaner with DIW - vacuum, but do not fully dry. 3. Final clean with say Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.05% - vacuum and do not fully dry. 4. Rinse final cleaner with DIW - vacuum and fully dry. There is manual labor with using a brush - I like the Record Dr bursh
Amazon.com: Record Doctor Clean Sweep Brush: Home Audio & Theater - you can use one brush - just rinse with water after each cleaner use (it can be tap water); and there is some technique - you have to work the brush and cleaner. Will it do the job, yes and more than likely better than ultrasonics because you are using a multi-step process with fresh cleaner and rinse water for each step. Something like the Degritter is convenient and easy to use with no manual labor, but as single step machine it has limitations. Once the record is deep wet cleaned, if you take reasonable care, store in an antistatic sleeve, there should be no reason to clean again. Static is something you cause. You can use an anti-static brush - but only just touch the record surface and the brush and you need a path to ground (touch something metal that is grounded). Otherwise, I use no brushes, just a swipe with the Kinetronics anti-static tiger cloth
Amazon.com: Kinetronics Anti-Static Microfiber Cloth, 10x18-Inch Tiger Cloth: Camera & Photo
to remove surface particles. |
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@pryso,
Let me offer a cheap solution first. Buy the two cleaning agents: the Alconox Liquinox ($22 from Amazon) as a pre-cleaner and the Tergitol 15-S-9 ($22 + shipping from Talas) as a final cleaner, and maybe a new brush. Then try the pre-clean/final clean procedure I listed above for @keegiam with your VPI 16.5. You may be surprised and you just saved about $950.
If you are not surprised, nothing is lost, the Alconox Liquinox is still usable as a pre-cleaner with the VPI 16.5 and the Tergitol 15-S-9 is usable with your new ultrasonic tank as the final cleaner.
One caveat, if you are surprised by the cheap solution mentioned above, it does not mean that the expensive solution with a new ultrasonic tank is going to be even better. It ’may’ only be easier.
Take care,
Neil |
@pryso,
This subject has been discussed many ways - there is a long thread over at the VPI Forum and starting around page 66 I started contributing http://www.vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2289&start=650. Otherwise, you can swipe the brush back & forth as quickly as you wish - the faster the better, just don't be throwing liquid everywhere. There are two schools of thought - one is to bear down on the brush/pad to scrub record - I am not a fan of that - too easy to do more harm than good. I am the school of thought that says move the brush as quickly as you can back & forth to agitate the cleaner/fluid - so that its is the fluid agitation - the fluid velocity/foam (that can mimic cavitation) that does the cleaning. Some foam is OK for manual cleaning when you are not using a lot of cleaner, it lifts/float debris from the record into the brush so you are not grinding it into the record. Your drying method sounds great - especially this time of year when cold weather + low humidity make it very easy to develop static on the record. Good Luck! Neil |
@keegiam, Yes, you can use the Liquinox with the vacuum-RCM. Use about 0.5% solution and then rinse with DIW and then proceed to final clean with the 15-S-9. The Liquinox will foam more than 15-S-9, but most of foam will collect in the brush. I will state that I now use the Liquinox even for new record, unless 45 rpm >$40 which are pretty clean. The record pressing plants are pushing manufacture to keep up with demand, and cleanliness suffers, but is correctable. Per my paper I use the OXO dish rack -
Dish Rack (oxo.com); the tips are smooth and almost rubbery, but its only good for six records which is pretty much the most I will clean at any one time. Take care & good luck, Neil |
@pindac, In the UK/EU you cannot purchase
Liquinox and Tergitol. Aside from ILFOTOL, for a Tergitol 15-S-9 near equivalent you can purchase
Dehypon LS54
Dehypon – Conservation Resources (UK) Ltd (conservation-resources.co.uk) which is not available in the US.
Dehypon LS54 is a low foaming, high performance nonionic surfactant; and like 15-S-9 is delivered 100% concentrated. If using at room temperature for hand-cleaning or vacuum-RCM, use it at about 0.025%. You use Dehypon LS54 at about 1/4 the concentration of Tergitol 15-S-9 (if curious, the critical micelle concentration of Dehypon LS54 is less than 15-S-9, so you can use less). I have no direct UK/EU substitute for Liquinox. I have done some searching, but I have yet to find any direct replacement. However, for the pre-clean step you have any number of alternatives; I choose Liquinox because I knew the product, the company and in the US - its cheap. I have not used this product, but it is clear (so no dye), appears to be formulated for records and is concentrated and the dilution ratio is not bad, Record Machine Cleaning Fluid Concentrate - 250ml by: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics. If you go to the vendor site FAQs – Vinyl Clear it does talk about dust - which implies the cleaner if not rinsed (or subject to final clean) the residue can be a dry powder. So long as you use it only for pre-clean, you should never experience this. A cheaper alternative (if you can find it) could be a hand dishwashing detergent that is not colored (no dyes), un-scented (no fragrance) and are not anti-bacterial. These will tend to have a number of ingredients that have nothing to do with cleaning such as thickeners, but diluted-down into a spray bottle can work as a pre-cleaner. Most thickened dishwashing detergents are at best 25% active so I recommend diluting to get about a 0.5% solution; add (1000 mL)(0.005)/(0.25) = 20 mL/L as a place to start. |
Bill,
The likelihood of the debris being pigment is pretty remote. The pigment forms with the PVCa/PVC a polymer so its not going to wear individually. However, consider this, the stylus develops pressures on the order of >10,000 psi and very localized (short term) temps approaching 500F. If there is any residue from past sins (i.e., brushes with record cleaners) and that residue is a hydrocarbon such as a surfactant. At those pressures & temperatures you will get partial thermal decomposition and essentially soot.
Just some thoughts. |
@keegiam,
Once you have established cleanliness its all about maintenance of cleanliness; and in my opinion the only thing that belongs in the groove is the stylus. |
@pindac,
If you down loaded the new 2nd Edition of the document Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records, read paragraph XIV.10 and you have 4 options, try one or try all and listen for which works best for you.
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@pindac,
We do not need absolute accuracy so we assume specific gravity of water of 1.0, so 300 mL = 300 g, and 0.025% LS54 = 75 mg. So your math to achieve 0.025%
I not sure how you plan on using the LS54. The high concentration you prepared 0.025% would be associated with manual cleaning or with a UCM as a pre-clean (para
XIV.9.4). But if you are going to use this as final-clean UCM w/o rinse, then the 2nd Ed of my document para XIV.10 shows an LS54 concentration of BASF™ DEHYPON® LS 54 at 0.0025 to 0.005%.
Otherwise, at the concentration you mixed (+250 ppm), you will get some foam (when agitated) which for manual cleaning is fine and good . As far as working with very small measurements, you can absolutely use weight, or as I address para XIV.7.e you can prepare a 1% solution of LS54 (10 mL/L) and then proportion from that. |
@pindac, First good news that your getting good results (as expected). Referencing -
Vinyl Record Manual Cleaning Process (thevinylpress.com), the pre-clean step (if using Alconox Liquinox) is where you can get some foam as noted Figure 15; and most of the foam should be in brush The final clean step that uses only a non-ionic surfactant will not foam excessively as noted Figure 17. I do not know what Ultrasound Solution is so unable to access what it may do or what harm it may do. The noise between tracks is essentially the silent groove(s). The background noise of the silent groove 'can' be inherent to the record material surface roughness - and this surface roughness can be specific to the specific pressing plant; or it may be tightly adherent small particles If you want you can try this very simple step as an additional pre-clean step to be performed after the first pre-clean with Alconox (or whatever detergent you are using). Pre-clean with White Distilled Vinegar 5% acidity (use no other). To 500 mL add 2-3 drops Tergitol 15-S-9. The 15-S-9 makes the vinegar a wetting solution. Gently spray each side of the record and then gently spread with the brush making sure the record is fully wetted; and then gently agitate for 2-4 minutes. After which rinse with flowing tap water to remove and then follow with final clean and rinse as specified in Chapter V. White distilled vinegar is a weak acid (acetic) but its also very pure - it comes from ethanol and is also known as ethanolic acid so it has almost no NVR. The weak acid is used to dissolve small inorganic mineral salt particles that are attached tightly to the record that detergents may not remove (I discuss this Chapter IV Figure 10). I now use white distilled vinegar (+ drops of 15-S-9) as the 2nd pre-clean step and have had good to excellent results with over 50 records. More details will be provide when the book 3rd edition is issued late this year or next. Good Luck Neil |
@pindac, For the 5% Acidity White Distilled Vinegar - this you buy at your local grocery store. Its generally provided in 1-pint (~500 mL); 1-quart (~1L) and larger containers. The pint containers I buy have screw top threads that are used by many sprayers. The Dehyphon will work just fine (its the EU/UK alternative to 15-S-9) - just add 2-3 drops/500 mL. In this case, exact measurement is not critical, so to keep simple just add 2-3 drops/pint. If you want to go the extra step of measuring it out - assume 20-drops/mL; so I am using ~0.1 to 0.15 mL/475 mL and 1-mL = 1000 mg; so 0.1 mL = 100 mg; and 0.15 mL = 150 mg (per pint = 475 mL).
Amazon Recommended Concentrate Cleaner >DIW as the
Pre Clean Solution and Dehyphon >DIW as the Final Rinse Solution.
I am going to assume that this is your actual current cleaning process: Pre-clean:
Amazon Recommended Concentrate Cleaner /DIW
Rinse: Flowing Tap-water Final-clean:
Dehyphon/DIW
First Final Rinse: Flowing Tap-water Final Rinse: DIW Otherwise - what is "Ultrasound Solution"; can you provide a link?
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@pindac,
Recognizing your issue with local very hard tap-water, your process looks great - try the distilled white vinegar before the
Dehyphon final clean and that should improve your results.
I was misunderstanding your term "Ultrasound Solution"; I now realize you are discussing use of an ultrasonic tank (UT) for the final rinse. In this case, since you are doing a pre-clean and final clean, but with only a spray for rinse (I understand your tap-water issue) use of a ultrasonic tank for final rinse may improve the process.
If you proceed down this path, for final rinse using UT, 1st try using only DIW and see how that works. If you are not satisfied then add 2.5% IPA and see if that improves the results. As the final option add 0.005% Dephyon to the UT 2.5% IPA solution. UT results will be very dependent of the orientation of the transducers (side firing vs bottom firing); kHz frequency, tank capacity (Liters) and ultrasonic power. Lower kHz UT (~40kHz) need a lot of power to get good cleaning with just DIW.
Good Luck,
Neil |
@pindac, Not sure you are aware, but you should be able to buy a record label protector -
Amazon.co.uk: record label protector. These are the same as the Groovemaster record label protector. |
@tomic601
Do not use vinegar with the Nitty Gritty or any vacuum-RCM; the vinegar - acetic acid can corrode the metal vacuum blower/motor. Although vinegar at 5% acidity is a weak acid it can corrode steel or plated steel. |
@pindac, For routine cleaning, you do not need to soak the record with White Distilled Vinegar for 15-30 minutes. That time comes from the book "VIII.12. DESCALING: Occasionally when resurrecting a Goodwill™ or flea market record find, there may be evidence of scale – such as hard water mineral spots...". For routine cleaning - I only do 2-4 minutes. The following info is not yet in the book: After a chance review of this thread https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php ... t-14577762 and while I question the validity of the source of the carbonates, it occurred to me that what I am seeing as ref PACVR 2nd Ed Chapter/para IV.6 & Figure 10 is very tightly adherent non-organic/mineral based particles. These type particles are natural to the environment; known as aerosols https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/globa ... 2_M_AER_RA. So its entirely feasible that these particle 'may' be in the ambient of record pressing factories (except QRP - http://www.qualityrecordpressings.com/i ... =standards which appear pressed in a very clean environment); and can be essentially be pressed into the record. These type particles are not going to be easily removed. Carbonates fluoresce intensely white and noting that I do inspect records with a 10 watt UV light, and it now occurred to me that the intense white specs that I am seeing on 'some' records may be inorganic salts/minerals. And, this debris that fluoresce intensely is not removed by multiple detergent washes and multiple rinses (with brush & flowing water). However, a weak acid can dissolve mineral type particles, especially very small (<5 microns) particles that can dissolve quickly. So after pre-clean with Alconox Liquinox I now do a pre-clean with White Distilled Vinegar (WDV) 5% acidity of which I add 4-5 drops Tergitol 15-S-9 to 1-pint WDV so that the WDV wets the record. I spray-on and gently agitate with Record Dr. nylon brush for 2-4 minutes. The results are good to excellent. WDV is unique - its a weak acid, its acetic acid that is fermented from ethanol and is also known as ethanolic acid and its very pure with almost no non-volatile residue (NVR); rinses easily and is cheap and readily available. After WDV pre-clean, I final clean and rinse. Otherwise, good to hear you are getting good results. Stay well, Neil
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