Music has to do with emotion and many composers of classical music put "scary passages" into their music quite purposefully. R. Strauss does, Mahler does, Sibelius, Mozart in Don Govanni, Schnittke, Shostakovits, Berlioz, just to mention a few A good rig will bring that all out, almost as well as a real life concert performance. Deep registers below 20hz or so, no matter if heard or just felt will scare the living daylights out of you. And yes, Axel, you are quite right, that has nothing to do with listeners fatigue. That form of discomfort comes from bad soft- or hardware.
An afterthought: Carl Jung never went to concerts. It shook him up too much, caused him emotional turmoil. I would say, that anyone who has never gotten goosebumps listening to music, be it from joy or being simply scared for a second, does not really know on a deeper level what music is about. |
Axel, you have certainly set out on a difficult path and will certainly meet with a lot of denial. Come to think of it, there are only a few speakers around, which will meet up to the standards you set forward. You're right about phase shift also. If phase is not right, throughout your entire system you will not get the feeling, that you could, say in a string quartett, walk around each of the four players who perform in your room. It spoils the illusion and DOES cause discomfort. This of course would mean that you're listening at a level, which many don't even have a clue about and this again would make you elitist, which of course is politically quite incorrect. You'll get flac, but never mind that, because I strongly feel that you are on the right track. What is a stereo worth its cost, if it does not give you pleasure, comfort and solace in difficult times. 'Nuff said, I'll get back to my music........(:
Happy listening,
Detlof |
Axel I agree what you say about the so called "highly resolving systems". I won't mention names here, but amongst them is gear highly revered by audiophiles who've never seen a concert hall from the inside and have their pockets emptied by gear which has nothing to do with how music can and should sound. They are happy with what they've got and I respect that and would never tell or argue that there are systems at less than a tenth of their cost which are much closer to the real thing. There is for example one manufacturer, whose gear you could only afford if you have a couple of oil wells in your backyard, who in his literature prides himself that his designs are all realized without listening tests but are based on pure "science". How unscientific can you get! Listening to one of his setups for a longer stretch of time will cause you discomfort if you are used to live concerts. Strangely enough, the manufacturers I have in mind are mostly European. Seems Japanese and US SOTA High-Enders listen to what they put on the market. Some of them, like Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere are musicians of their own right. |
Axel,
Nope, we ain't gonna fall. Not even if pushed or shoved. (((:
Happy listening,
Detlof |
Oh dear.......
Axel, how are 300Bs scary? The NOS ones? Yes they scare my pocketbook. Cheap Chinese replacements? Yes, they scare when they blow. In Wavacs, NO, pure heaven, where then prey do they scare then?
Besides, I doubt if a speaker or any component is scary by itself. If at all, you have to experience the whole chain to find out if you're comfortable or not. Not so?
Cheers, |
Axel,
I find it interesting, what your speaker designer has to say about "unpleasantness", when massed instruments are being played. Possibly he has a point. I have a hunch why this could indeed often be the case. On the other hand I don't want to start the old dogfights between analog and digital afficionados here again, because that usually leads to nowhere, except for abuse and bad feelings. Let me state thisis here quite clearly. I love and need both media. But....just for my ears and well being, big orchestral classical music leaves me stone cold on digital, there is too much missing in subtle information. It does not frighten me, but it bores and annoys me, makes me nervous. It is too far away from what I experience at concert. Whereas for Jazz, small combos, voices, some, not all chamber music I prefer digital over analog. It simply has more presence and "reality". Why not ask you speaker-man, if he also listens to analog and if he experiences the same thing there. If so, I would suggest, that his speakers are at fault.
This, by the way has nothing to do with what Timtim had to say. I agree with him, he follows the same line as I set out in an earlier post here.
Cheers,
Detlof |
Axel,
Yes, your speaker-man's frontend isn't bad, as you say. But it is not SOTA either. Whatever, since he listens to analogue and even seems to prefer it, I really don't know what he is talking about regarding massed strings, because I don't share his sentiments but at the same time am VERY finicky especially about the rendition of massed strings in big orchestral classical music. Perhaps you could ask him what especially sounds wrong to his ears and we could try to pinpoint the "heart of evil".
Cheers,
D |
Hi Mrtennis, seems you're still caught in Decartes' illusion.(((: Enjoy........By the way, hope you'll get goosebumps one day, maybe even a slight scare in a live classical concert. It sort of opens up the mind, even if you think it is already wide enough.
Cheers and happy listening,
Detlof (: |
ROFLMAO, thanks Shadorne!!!! |
My mentioning of Decartes has nothing to do with philosophy per se, but with the underlying premisses or a point of view, from wich someone looks at what he percieves to be real. In that sense, if we know it or not, we are all "philosophers".
Hi Axel,
If I had the choice, I'd always opt for a "scary" stereo. Life is too short to fall asleep over it or rather why be happy with the mediocre?? Even if you cannot afford what all the gurus are raving about, there are enough tricks and tweeks to make your stuff sing--if you have the patience, the passion and the ear for it. |
LOL (((:
Shouldn't it be stereolized? But then no, we are already.
So sterilized it is, you're right Map. But as Mr T says, it doesn't matter, as long as you like it. |
"stating an opinion that is unimportant, like other opinions for the purpose of conversation is ok."
ROFLMAO.
TVAD, we have a true jester here, lets sow some more bells to his cap.....
Like all jesters, he's right of course: `tis but small talk we're having.....LOL......where's the buffet and the drinks??? |
Again, the deepest register of an organ for example, which is at 16 hz will cause the sensation of fear in you. It is first and foremost a physiological thing, the psychological reaction coming second. You will have the same sensation of unease listening to the first bars of "Also sprach Zarathustra" on a system capable of plunging to those depths. Most systems cannot and you need not be overly sensitive to feel uneasy here. Especially the composers of the romantic period, but in earlier as well as later times, tried through rhythmic and melodic means to trigger quite specific emotive responses in their audience by compository means which are taught in music theory to this day. Wagner is an absolute master in this, but also Schubert und Bruckner, even Bach in his great Passions. no matter what some seem to have to state here, *IF* you have the ear and gear for it and the necessary sensitivities, you will, when listening to your music through the years ,have experienced *ALL* emotive states, which you are capable of. A suden bout of fear, having your hair stand up, can certainly be one of them. I am thinking here especially of Sibelius and R. Strauss. This has nothing to do with my disliking certain passages of certain music, be it, that I don't like the interpretation or the recording process and then there are of course systems, where only politeness forbids to have me leave the premises precipitously with much mumbling and cursing..... |
"why would one react the same way to something that is real, e.g., live music and something that is not real, i.e., the sound of a stereo system."
This sentence could be no further off the mark.
Case in point: You sit and listen to your stereo *in the dark*, the music, say the Violin and Piano Concerto of the pubescent Mendelsohn draws you deeply into its melodic texture, not intellectually, which oculd be a pleasure as well, but emotionally. You sort of become one with the dialogue between piano and violin. (Argerich and Kremer in that case)Suddenly the massed strings set in, the recording as well as your rig at that very moment are so good, that it sounds as if the players, though somewhat reduced in size, were here with you in the room. The illusion is so perfect, that for a moment, your conscious mind anyway somewhat unfocused, in a tiny fraction of a split second you don't know where you are and what is at. It is a flash of being startled, fright if you will, adrenaline flows for sure, that gets you back into your place in time and space. Could it be that, Axel, what you are talking about? If so, I would say, that a rig must be really excellent, if it can sometimes scare you.
Food for thought for me, don't know about you of course...
( The Concerto I mentioned was recorded by DGG on digital by the way and I have it on vinyl no less. So one would expect the worst of both worlds. Not so in this case . Just goes to show, that there are always exceptions to ones predilections and exceptions to the rules you like to believe in. What a great hobby we have! |
