Let me put in my two cents worth again,and I'll shut up after that.I think an analogy could be useful here,only because I find the 3.2 with the lamm amps to be one of the most enjoyable and TRULY musical combinations I've heard in my 35 years in the hobby.It is kind of like this:those people who love a restaurant because the food is good,and you get a really big portion,so you can take home a doggy bag.I know people like this.Then there is the crowd that prefers a really fine restaurant for it's superb chef and incredible service and really unique menu,but,although the food is unique,the portion sizes are smaller and,no doggy bag.I far prefer the latter.To me a simple,and supremely well designed two way,like the 3.2 is the second restaurant.Totally coherent and magical with the Lamm stuff.The more complex design of a three way or a four way can NEVER match the magic of this,first design.Yes they are more dynamic,and can be quite coherent,but when you listen,and live for a length of time with your GROUP-A choice it is very hard to make a changeover to the doggy bag.By the way,I own a fine three way system(Avalon based)but,I do appreciate the uniqueness of that damn little 3.2 sound.So,obviously one has to make a choice based upon their own tastes.just make one based on your own experiences and taste,and,not based upon what the mainstream press tells you that you should like(which is a fault we all succomb to at times)as they don't have your best interests at heart,but,rather,their best advertisors! |
Thom y,your point is well taken! |
I would like to pose some questions to any 3.2 owners out there.Do any of you have any thoughts on amps like the Cary 805 or Canary 339 driving these babies?also any thoughts on something like a CAT preamp/with built in phonostage here?When I look at those combinations they seem very viable as compared to the fabulous,yet expensive Lamm stuff. |
Owl,I'm happy you get so much pleasure from your,apparent,wonderful set-up.No I have no association with Kharma.I'm just a REAL music lover,over equip. collector.I just happen to,also,think that the Kharma line is very overpriced,even with a weak American dollar.I think the U.S. distributer is marking up the line too much,which is not surprising,as the mainstream press(you know who)seems to be helping things along,a bit too much,with the CONSTANT mentioning of "Everything Kharma is Best ",especially the high priced stuff.This,to me, is very effective marketing,but,I've been around the block a few times,and know a few knowledgeable people who have given me some REAL perspective(something which manufacturers,and dealers hope audiophiles don't have too much of,which they usually don't,especially after a great review).As far as the 3.2's are concerned,they are the only speaker in the line that has not increased,by about 33 percent in price this year.They have stayed at last years price because,I believe they are already overpriced,however I,also,think they are worth evey penny.I hope that the distributor does not get too selfish with these little GEMS.The rest of the line is laughably overpriced.GREAT stuff,but insultingly pricey.When the Grand Ceramiques were introduced,the were(as indicated on their website)priced at about 35,000 US dollars.That quickly went to 41,000 and now we are up to 56,000.PLEASE!So what speaker do you think is their best seller?Their best in the line IMO,the 3.2.These to me represent a design,not unlike the original Quad,and should be taken as such.I truly have a passion for these little guys,and am not fooled by the suck-up reviewers,who want to live with loaners.I have met a few and I never met one who didn't want his "perks".I'm sure this will not be a popular thread with the "BIG BUCK" Kharma crowd.Also I will probably sell my home in about 3 years and move to Florida,where I'll Probably have a smaller room.What speakers do you think I'll live with (with a smile on my face,even after I'm bombarded with the latest multi/big/advanced crossover material Kharma design).Sorry for being long winded> As for Zorn,I love Chimeras.He has a very varied discography.Try MASADA #1,3,or5 in the jazz area.Also "In the miror of Maya Deren"/Naked City/Invitation to a Suicide/Madness Love and Mysiicism/Filmworks XI/FilmworksXII are both incredible!These are a few,but what I love to do is to go to a place like BARNES AND NOBLE and use the computerized music computer to audition everything.This way you get to hear for yourself.Good luck. |
Also,I'll bet you have not been a reviewer too long.Am I also correct in assuming you do not review for TAS or Stereophile?You don't seem to be as in love with yourself as some(a few guys from that crowd are quite decent fellows,a FEW).Would you believe that some time ago I was at the home of one such chap,who after continually bloviating about how much I should love his stuff,and TELLING me what I must NOT buy(I did anyway, thankfully),then proceeded to Blast the "Has to be bright and crappy sounding"set-up of a dear friend of mine(also an audio journalist,and one of the nicest people you would ever want to meet).Here, this yutz had never heard the set-up in question,and,although the system he had was good,it could not touch my pal's rig.Living in the NY/NJ area and attending various audio gatherings,over a number of years,this scenario has played itself out to me on quite a few occassions.I have nothing against industry types,and,according to my lovely wife,am quite a nut myself,but pomposity,to me ,is really annoying.Especially when those that think they do,Don't.Also, please accept my own apology, in advance,for my own bloviating. |
Even if TENOR never comes back there are always quality repair/update vendors that can do the type of work necessary.I just hope that those that bought the,ECELLENT,Tenor products don't bail on them.This would,of course,be a boon for the "looking for GREAT used stuff,cheap"crowd(which I'm beginning to think are some pretty savvy folks).I recently had my Audio Research SP-15 updated by an independant vendor(GREAT NORTHERN SOUND).I have owned the SP-10 and the SP-11,both great units.I knew the SP-15,being a hybrid was not held in as high regard as the all tube models,but,Steve Huntley,of GNS,was Audio Research's former Chief engineer,and had almost guaranteed me I'd be thrilled with the results.Also,I felt the SP-15 had quieter backgrounds than the SP-10 or 11,and certainly smoked the previous units in frequency extremes.My impression was that at the time the SP-15 was marketed, there was a shortage of quality tubes and the original ones that came with the SP-15 shall we say"SUCKED".I was given a choice(based upon my own listening tastes)of what caps to use in the linestage as well as a different variety in the phonostage.BOY!Was I glad I chose to go this route.I counted at least 60 new parts exchanged out of the unit when it came back.An independant MOD vendor,with a great reputation.Even if Audio Research was not around anymore I'd still have recourse in case of a problem. The same should hold true for TENOR products,which I've heard on so many occassions.Never once have I heard any of them sound anything less than fabulous.Case in point(sorry for being longwinded,by the way)at HE-2004 TENOR was showing the Hybrid 300 watt monos driving the EPIPHANY 12/12 speakers driven with Meitner gear.The sound was stunning.I was in the room when a fellow(Reviewer for TAS)was auditioning them.He whipped out CD after CD from his private stash.I was sitting just behind this,Kharma/Lamm lover(PROMOTER).My point being,I had been in that room for at least 4 hours over 2 days.That,to me,and I know it was only my own dumb opinion,was by far the best sound at the show.If I owned the Tenor stuff there is NO WAY I'd be worried right now.I'd be thrilled to own such great stuff,and with a little legwork there is always support for these types of products.This is not NEW CIRCUIT DESIGN,created in a vacuum.By the way, the reviewer in question,upon his show report,proceeded to pronounce the TWO Kharma rooms(supported by Lamm/Walker stuff)as by far the best sound at the show.These rooms were very small,"as in tiny".The TENOR EPIPHANY room was large and perfectly supported that set-up,unlike(in my ,opinion,and those of my friends,as well as one non "ALL EQUIP ON LOAN FOR CONSTANT EXPOSURE"audio magazine)the rediculously small Kharma/Lamm based two rooms.P.S.Guess what equipment is in this reviewer's home,on loan?To gat back to my original point,The Tenor stuff IS great.Will always be great,and will always be able to be maintained, so you lucky owners can enjoy their greatness.Even when those that have their own agenda tell you they are not as great as as you hear them to be.Sadly I know those that this would affect. |
I must tell you(and this is only my opinion),I do not own a Kharma,a friend owns the 1.0,but I have made a strong effort to hear much of the line.I've heard the 3.2 on many occassion.Without and with the sub.I heard the Midigrand on it's own I truly believe the 3.2 and Lamm combo is possibly the most stunningly beautiful combo I've ever heard when it comes to the flow of a musical note.A threeway,while many are successful adds to the complexity and may take away from the majic,that the 3.2 has IN SPADES.Adding a sub,which can be great,still can make matters more difficult,while improving them in other areas.As far as the midi's go IMO the 3.2 is a better speaker.Mind you I don't own either one,but am trying to give an unbiased opinion.Those that have already committed money to a product seldom admit to something else being better.Think about the marketing involved.How much more do you yhink Kharma makes by selling you a Midi compared to a 3.2.To me the Midi is a wonderful speaker,but,for the money,they are laughably overpriced.For that kind of money there are FAR better reproducers of realistic sound,regardless of what you read from the PANDERING reviewers! |
I promised to keep quiet after my last post.I lied.I find the little 3.2's too fascinating a speaker to keep quiet about.I did go to GTT AUDIO after they were displayed at the Stereophile show in N.Y.I wanted to hear them set up by the actual distributor,at his home/demo premises.I want to remind you I do not own Kharma.I own,and am very happy with a pair of Avalons,but,without resorting to any comparisons,I love those "little buggers" (the 3.2's).The GTT set up was all lamm.I brought my own Reference discs(both analog and digital).The 3.2's were set up in the basement,and were set up very well,based on what I heard.The basement,from what I remember,was fairly large.The speakers were appx.4 feet from side walls and I'd say about 8 ft from the back wall.the walls were concrete with a concrete floor.Ceiling height I think was around 7 or 8 ft.I can tell you this.I honestly thought there was a hidden sub in the room.This was before any Kharma sub existed.I just happen to run a REL STENTOR with my Avalons.I tell you this for perspective!I have been able to gat a fabulous blend due to very low crossover point and very low gain on the sub.This all in a dedicated room of 13x23x8 with concrete floors.Enough about my speaker set-up.The point I'm attempting to make is about the 3.2's.I'm trying to be brutally honest,and do not aspire to own the 3.2's,since I'm very pleased with my own stuff,but,I really do believe the 3.2's are one of the most unique designs I have ever had the pleasure of hearing.On to what I heard at GTT.Firstly I brought over some John Zorn film music on the TZADIK label.Stunning stuff,riffed with incredible detail(Zorn is a GENIOUS anyway)and fabulous LOW frequency detail.The sound of the CD was so detailed on this set up and the music so damn great that the young sales guy asked me if he could burn the CD for demo use.The bass response on Synth and organ,while not quite up to my Ava-Rel set-up was stunning/magical/"RIGHT",even with a slight lack of deep impact.I didn't care about any slight loss of depth because the speakers told me to "just listen to what we offer up to you".UNBELIEVEABLE coherence,that I really heard none of when the same set up was demoed at HE 2005 with the sub.I know this was show conditions,but after reading so much good press(except SENSIBLE SOUND)who heard it as I did,I must say that I would gladly live with the 3.2's alone.At my GTT listening session I,also,brought some first pressing Mercury recordings.The FIREBIRD with DORATI,and an FR-1 pressing.This opens with double bass that you "feel".Real weight.My home set-up does this with more weight.This is still IMO not an issue with the 3.2 w/o sub as there is a real "MAGIC" that I believe is due to the extreme simplicity of that design.I truly believe that when you add to it's complexity with the Kharma sub,or any sub,you lose something of that magic.We live in a society of "Bigger is Better"hype.Bigger cars.Bigger houses,T.V's.swimming pools.Bigger tennis rackets.Larger hitting areas on bigger golf clubs.Heck,bigger boobs.Bigger,Bigger,Bigger.Companies(including Kharma)make more money selling this to us and ingratiating reviewers to reinforce this.The only real "boob" here (To ME)is the yutz that takes a zen-like simple design of the 3.2 and upgrades to a 'bigger""better"one.If that actually exists!The fact is I think the 3.2 IS THE BEST SPEAKER IN THE LINE.I'll bet,behind closed doors,so does Van Oosterum!But he will never admit it.Nor would any distributor.You see they want their bigger cars and houses too!! |
By the way.I don't drink beer,but,do LOVE wine.Any thoughts on what varietal, as I listen INTO my(then)"mere 2-way" soundstage? |
Rgs92,very astute points,and well received.As a matter of fact there may, or may not, be a marketing ploy at work biasing some to only use tubes.I have heard GREAT set-ups with both topologies.As for the Kharma stuff,I have a dear friend with a Ceramique model 1 driven by a Rowland 8t.I really have to admit that,even though I have loved these speakers driven by tubed stuff,he REALLY gets a FANTASTIC sound.I,TRULY,would never know whether they were solid state or tubes if I didn't know better.Fuel for thought!By the way,the bass response from this set-up is SOTA,but,there really is something to the sound of those little 3.2's that I can't shake.I guess it's true,"I like it,and like it alot". |
Fmpnd,now, why the Hell did you have to go and "BE SO DAMN NICE".I may have to take you up on your offer some day.Of course,because you seem to be such a truly sincere and decent gent I would not be able to abrubtly criticize your set-up,in your presence,at least.Not that there seems to be anything I'd dislike about it.By the way,don't be so hospitable to the likes of the audio community,as there are those who could take advantage of your hospitality,with "not so good" intentions, of their own.This happened to me about 20 years ago.I got ripped off(a Tandberg tapedeck).I learned my lesson regarding strangers,and, hope you don't experience anything like that! |
It would be OH,SO easy to slip an FR-1 Merc.or S-1 Shaded dog under my shirt.If you have the music collection to match your set-up(you'd better,if you're the "real deal").By the time you had noticed I'd be back in the WEB,from which I sprang.How do you know I'm not some 12 year old anyway?Hah,Hah!By the way,I too am in a business that is high pressure,and,as an owner, it is total fun to sink into our litle obsession.No harm done to anyone,other than giving a bad rap to someone who just spent megabucks on the latest audio gizmo.Truly,it's been amazing,to me,that after paying off Two college tuitions(at once)and now having one Medical student around,that I've had any leftover dough to maintain any acceptable equip.Thank GOD I bought decent stuff!Have any leftover cash lying around at work?I'd like to expand my own "dedicated room" 13x23 was fine when I built it,but, I can't stop my non stop pondering of "what ifs"! |
I agree wholeheartedly with Fmpnd's sentiments.Unless you are a Krell or a WILSON the VAST majority of high end gear is manufactured by VERY small firms.We,also,must take this into account when dealing with companies like these.Case in point:I recently paid fairly serious dollars(UP FRONT, which I'd normally never do)to have my SOTA COSMOS turntable updated by the folks at SOTA.I had met them at HE-2004,and,they seemed like extremely fine folks.Well,after sending out my table I,still,had to wait almost 4 months to get it back.Fortunately this was in summer,and,I was really involved with my tennis(my first love),so,I really didn't care about the delay.However the table came back to me with a motor that was faulty.This REALLY pissed me off!I gave it some time to see if the platter, not getting up to speed until about a dozen rotations, would work itself out.With my luck,as of late,it did not get any better.I was actualy more upset that I would have to disassemble the table/arm,and repack and ship everything during the NFL playoff weekend,and,since I'm really tired of the endless tweaking to get everything right,I NO LONGER HAVE THE DESIRE TO "PATCHKA" any longer.I'm not getting any younger and I viewed the whole breakdown process as a MAJOR PAIN!So I called the owners of the Co. and spoke with Kirk(an owner)who then asked if I could wait about 5-6 MORE weeks to send the unit back,as he was getting in newer motors,and,wanted to put these in my unit.Any normal person,at this point,I believe,would "freak out".Truthfully,the guy is SO NICE,and was so appologetic(sp?)that I simply didn't have the heart to act agitated,even though I had a sneaky suspicion that this latest delay may have been brought on by the post Christmas orders SOTA may have gotten.In truth,being an adult(I think?)I realize that this is probably a scenario Fmpnd is alluding to,and I'd rather not put additional pressure on a company,like SOTA(whom I believe have their hearts in the right place).I'm set to send my table out in about 3 weeks.In the meantime my Levinson 390s CD player will have to do(poor me).I really do firmly believe that when my COSMOS does return it will be of exemplary performance,and condition.This has almost been sworn "in blood"to me by an owner.Try getting the CEO of Lexus or Mercedes to give you that kind of a personal guarantee! |
Fmpnd,I'm reserving a ticket,as we speak.On a personal level,I have a dear friend who is a former reviewer,and is NOT a "low life form".He is a great guy.Although you were probably kidding,please don't misunderstand any of my comments.That being said,being in the NY/NJ area with my local yokels I've met and been to the homes of quite a few of these types,which you are clearly not.The majority of these gents truly seem to be in the industry for the discounts.I know of at least 2 that have come back into writing just because they want to upgrade something.This is a fact!As for my own feelings about what I seem to bloviate on,admittedly too much,I really miss the days(you must remember)when the mainstream press was not so advertising driven,and the mags really seemed to care about their readership,no,make that subscribers.I know of too many exagerations in reviews,first hand to give credibility to more than a handfull of selfish hobbyists,disguised as reviewers!I also own,and can afford quality stuff,so,this is no case of envy.God forbid.Anyway,sorry for bumming you out, you really do seem to be a sincere person,just for the mention of allowing a stranger to audition your,apparent,wonderful set-up,even in jest! |
