I don't see anything that makes me wretch, so I'll say to let your ears be your guide. Unfortunately you'll be hearing all of these in an unfamiliar system. It's really hard to evaluate CDPs outside of your own system. Amps driving anything other than your own speakers will be misleading.
So, what do you do? Evaluate the dealers and see which ones you trust the most after you meet them. Before you go down, review all you can about the amps and CDP. When you get there focus on apparent build quality and pricing. If someone gives you crap about you existing system, then leave.
Dave |
I think that cables are a concern for anyone trying to remove harshness, but he should look to used cables here on A'gon.
Dave |
06-15-08: Digsmithd said:
"Hey dc step let us know how you like your new parker!!"
I love the pictures and the CD I've been sent (much more than's on the site), BUT I won't take delivery until late this year or early in '09. It's being used in some recordings and Ken's going to install a Fishmann Aura pickup system. With luck, I'll fly to New York and go with Ken to Fishman's for the installation and tracking recordings to optimize the Aura. I've got my fingers crossed that Frisell will use it in a recording also.
It'll be a busy guitar until it comes home to retire at my abode.
Dave |
Blindjim said:
" Tubes, do offer more options for the ears, via some tube rolling. So that has to be a consideration if you enjoy tweaking or just making simple changes to the sound systems signature from time to time"
I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage; however, I understand that many think this is "fun" and a meaningful hobbiest activity. I personally prefer to buy a designer's best possible work and enjoy it, rather than risk screwing it up with some half-baked scheme to "improve it" with some 60 year old tubes.
Dave |
Yeah, a little levity never hurts. ;-)
I've found over the years that many people do, indeed get "bullied" by their perceptions of others. (It's actually a marketing strategy of certain audio dealers, as we know). They come to places like A'gon as newbies and tend to see us contributors as somewhat "expert", perhaps more so than deserved. We can't save everyone from the "wolves" (potential bad dealers, potential bad A'goners, etc.) but sometimes we can help them navigate by building up their trust in their own capacities.
Dave |
I think you need to be careful of dealers, but I think you'll find that there are some great ones out there. IF, that's a big "if", you find a good one they can save you lots of searching and speed you toward your goals.
Dave |
06-18-08: Mrjstark said:
"Dave, I am not saying that it is an advantage......but just another choice."
Yes, you and I totally agree. Somewhere earlier in the thread it was touted by someone else as an advantage.
Dave |
You don't lose money with dealer source gear, IF you love it. Something that you're not going to sell is worth what it's worth. Resale is irrelevant with keepers.
That said, experienced audiophiles should feel pretty comfortable with used stuff here on A'gon. I'm reluctant to send a newbie to the used market. There are a few wolves here on A'gon.
Dave |
Still, a newbie without audiophile friends is going to have a hard time going it on their own. I say check out the dealers first, he could be pleasantly surprised.
Oops, time to go, I need to go pick up cables at my dealer and take the loaner back. ;-)
Dave |
OMG, I hate stories where the wife gets the analog in a divorce. Does she at least listen to it or was that pure spite???
Oh man, I feel your pain.
BTW, I've never dealt with Galen, but I've heard nothing but positives when I lived in DFW.
Dave |
Blindjim said:
"There is nothing half baked about tailoring or tweaking a system to the tastes of it’s owner/builder. My experience has shown swapping out the OEM tubes is one way to go about it and the results from the doing of it have always been improvement, in varying degrees, and occasionally, entirely."
I'm assuming that you're a hobbiest. If so, then anything that you do will be half baked vs. a designer that's spent his whole career designing the best circuits that he knows how to make.
Once again I'll say, some people like to play around and experiment with tubes to see if they prefer different tubes over what the designer chose. I think that's fine for those people that enjoy that, but I'm in the very substantial camp that would rather pay a designer to do his best work and buy accordingly.
I'm not dissing your choice, I'm merely saying that one is no more valid than the other.
Dave |
Blindjim said:
"unless the thought is to replace this new/now CDP later on. if that's the case, the OPpo 980H is a slam dunk, multi format player that yields great results in audio and can stick around as just a video player when the itch to move up strikes again. it can even be run as a preamp! Cutting costs even more so, initially anyways"
BTW, I'm not picking on you buddy, you're just deep in this thread. ;-)
I own an Oppo 981HD, two in fact, and they are incredible values for the money, but they're not up to the standard of even the Pioneer DV-58AV which is less than double the price. If you have Ric Schultz mod the Pioneer to his top level, then it's all-in about $1500 and you have a universal that competes with most players under 5-grand, IMHO. Also, he's doing a 32-bit mod which really moves the Oppo up the food chain.
It's funny, if you spend $200 on the Oppo and $400 on an Analysis Plus IC, then you DO in fact have a very nice front end, but the Pioneer is an order of excellence better.
Dave |
The guy's been through a divorce and has surely been around the block a time or two. I suspect that he can smell a bad dealer. Audio societies are also good, but you'll run into no-it-alls there and it can be hard to find any "real truth."
I suggest checking out all possible resouces and don't make a decision without sleeping on it.
Dave |
Understood Tvad, I call those Class-D or ICEpower. They're not "digital" at all, since there's no analog-to-digital or digital-to-analog conversion that takes place. The main chip set in my Rowland controls the remote control functions.
Dave |
06-18-08: Tvad said:
"06-18-08: Dcstep
Mariusz, I'm not playing a game. I payed just under $300 for a Holland GZ34 rectifier.
You paid too much...by double if not triple. I'd suggest seeking a different source for your tubes. You're getting reamed."
See, I told everyone that tube rolling wasn't an "advantage" to owning tube equipment.
Tvad, thanks for your concern, but I looked for several weeks for a metal-base Holland and saw several over $600. If I'd spent more weeks or been more "expert" I might have found a better price, but I didn't and I don't plan to buy many more tubes in my lifetime.
Dave |
Blindjim said:
"No matter how you shake it, tube gear offers additional advantages over solid state merely by their nature. Don’t confuse that with performance though. That’s a whole other realm."
So tubes have some mystical advantage over SS, but it's not performance??? Please tell us what "realm" these so called advantages lie in.
I sometimes enjoy turning the lights off and watching the tubes glow on my great little Woo Audio WA6 headphone amp. Is that of what you speak???
Dave |
Wow, interesting attack Macrojack, you know attack my friends just because I don't think that tube rolling is an automatic advantage of owning tube gear and I point out that many prefer to buy a well designed system and just enjoy the music.
Nowhere do I attack tube rolling and its proponents.
As for Jeff Rowland, what does it matter where he started??? I see a snear in your words that would belittle a proud, honest man that once made a living doing mods and is now a highly respected designer with a world wide following. Are you jealous, or what? Attacking my friends is like a personal attack and probably doesn't fit within A'gon rules, IMHO.
Rod Tomson is surely a friend. I was a musician and audiophile for decades before I met Rod. We hit it off for many reasons, not the least of which is our compatable views of music (he's a musician also) and what two-channel audio can do.
You presuppose that I'm anti-tubes when you say if I tried them then I'd be a loud proponent. That is far from the truth. My first integrated amplifier was a used Scott 20 watter that I bought when I was 18. one of my favorite jazz guitar amps is an Alessandro Italian Greyhound, with all the bells and whistles. My headphone amp is a single-end, Class-A, Woo Audio WA6 with a Holland GZ34 rectifier tube. (Not provided by Jack Wu, but recommended by him, so yes I do "roll", but that doesn't mean that I think it's an "advantage"0. Until recently my phono pre-amp was a nice little tube unit. So you see, I'm not anti-tubes, yet despite my use of tubes I'm not singing their praises as the only viable option.
So back to my advice for the OP, listen and follow your ears, take your time and don't get pressured into ANYTHING including being belittled into thinking you MUST get tubes to qualify as an audiophile. Tubes are one of two or three possible amplifier camps. Trust your ears. Oh, don't be afraid of tubes if that's where your ears take you.
Dave |
06-18-08: Mrjstark said:
"Dave in all due respect, where did you come up with $1500 NOS tube replacement. If that is what you paid.........It just might explain your anti_tube parade. I personaly wouldn't down anyone for their choices and preferences. We all know what we like and it might not be necessary what the next guy prefers but the most important fact is that it sounds good to you."
That's a set of tubes, not just one.
Dave |
Mariusz, I'm not playing a game. I payed just under $300 for a Holland GZ34 rectifier. I've seen 300Bs for many times more and I've seen GZ34s as high as $700+. If you've got an intergrated amp with several tubes and you're going for the best sound possible, as I assumed, then $1500 is not much.
I spent over $9000 for my SS, integrated, including the phono-stage. Without looking back at my example, I think it only came to $5000, so I wasn't implying that $1500 was a ton of money. (I spent that on 3 ICs this week!!). You seem shocked that someone would spend that kind of money, but I thought that I was offering a real world example.
Let me give another example. I bought the Woo Audio WA6 for around $600 new. The NOS rectifier was $250 and if I replaced the power tubes with comparable, highest quality tubes, I'd spend another $200. That doesn't quite double the investment, but it gets it close.
My point is, once again, being able to tube roll is NOT an automatic advantage to owning tube equipment, UNLESS you enjoy doing that kind of thing. I think there are at least as many equipment owners that would rather not have to do such things to maximize the performance of their rigs.
Dave |
Tvad my friend, what's a "chip amp"?
Dave |
Congratulations on your purchases. That should all be a good match for your speakers. If you're going to mod, the CDP is indeed the place to start.
You'll need to replace those Chinese tubes eventually, but you can do it over time. It's going to sound better than your old rig right out of the box.
Welcome to the second step of the audiophile journey.
Dave |
06-20-08: Steidlguitars said:
"As much as I hate to agree with Dcstep (joke! really!),"
Understood.
As I said, some people enjoy playing around with tubes and our Chap-cat seems to be one of those. Hopefully his experience with tubes will be as good as mine (no failures over several years within my system -- knock wood) and he'll only experience the best of the "tube experience."
Dave |
Great report, thanks for getting back to us.
You'll gain another 5% or so with burn-in, generally. Some systems sound horrible right out of the box and gain a bunch, but the ones that sound good out of the box usually only gain a little more.
If you'd wanted bass, you should have gone SS!! Just kidding, kind of... ;-) (The tube-hugging, tube-rollers will help you improve your sound with some different tubes, just don't expect ALL the bass).
Dave |
Mariusz is right, the speaker positioning can have a ton of impact on bass. Don't be afraid to move them back closer to the rear wall.
Dave |
Let it all out, don't hold back, you'll eventually feel better... ;-)
Dave |
Blindjim, you probably think all my posts are about you. I can assure you that's not true and there's no hidden message in each one designed to put your panties in a wad.
In the OP's price range he's not likely to find tubes that equal the bass control and texture of similarly priced SS. If it were otherwise, why didn't you guys steer him to a slammin', bass pumpin' tube rig???
I don't have to defend my 5% remark, but, for instance, my Ultimate Ears Triple.fi 10 Pros were fantastic right out of the box and only improved a tiny bit with 100-hours of burn-in. My Analysis-Plus Solo Crystal Oval 8 speaker cables sucked out of the box and sounded incredible after 300-hours, yet my A-P ICs sounded good on day-one and hardly improved after that. Maybe you just don't hear as well as me, otherwise you'd have similar experiences. ;-)
Dave |
Welcome Chap_cat. So your $3000 assumes no change to the speakers right now? One very good thing about those speakers is that they're VERY efficient and you really don't need a lot of power to drive them. I'd focus on getting a high quality CD/SACD player first, then like a 100 watt integrated amp (you may not need that much power now, but I suspect that you'll upgrade your speakers in the not-too-distant future). Finally, you need to consider upgrading your interconnects and speaker cables. (You didn't tell us what you use). The CDP and cables have a big impact on listener fatigue. Also, adding a nice big rug and some stuffed furniture will help the room a lot. You may need further treatment after you take some remedial steps. Speaker placement is also huge. (See my review of the Sumiko Speaker Set}. Look at the A'gon members' Virtual Systems, focusing on simple, but elegant systems. Ideally you'd find your speakers first and then select a compatable amp next. If you'd "like to keep" your Klipsch forever, then don't worry about this, but if you're thinkin that you might make a move in the relatively new term, then you might think of delaying the amp decision until then. You start with your sources, connections and room to get rid of listener fatigue, then move to the speakers and amp(s). Some here will try to sucker you into a fight about tubes vs. SS vs. Class D vs. Class A vs. etc., etc. Don't worry about ANY of that crap and just listen when making your decisions. Any of those technologies will work in most applications when well implemented. Breath deeply and happy hunting... Dave |
Blindjim said:
"Dcstep said:
'I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage.'
...The ability to interchange tubes, if one wishes to do so, is also an additional feature set, and thus, an advantage."
No, more choices (in tubes) is NOT an automatic advantage. For those that like to take chances and play around with tube rolling, yes it is, but for the other half of us we'd rather buy a well thought out design that represents the designer's best efforts and run with it.
Dave |
Blindjim, I didn't say that you're "half baked" I was speaking of tube rolling audiophiles, in general, not being anywhere near as qualified as the designers of their equipment to make decisions about the best tubes for the equipment. In hobbiests vs. professional designers, the designers win most of the time.
If a designer wants to put a pre-amp, for instance, and then says to his customers something like, "If you want even better sound, then I recommend that you spend another $1500 on these tubes and it'll be an easy upgrade that you can do yourself" then I think that's useful. OTOH, the hobbiest that buys an $15000 Conrad Johnson and immediately says to himself, "I bet that I can make it better by swapping the tubes out for some NOS" is fooling himself.
My main point is, tube rolling is NOT an advantage to tube equipment UNLESS the owner just likes to tube roll. Anyone that enjoys tube rolling should obviously seek out tube equipment. However, IMHO, equipment designers are generally in the best position to decide which parts will sound the best in their equipment. Lots of us would rather buy from a designer that's put together his best effort and stick with that.
Dave |
