What the heck, I'll chime in again. DV-50 lasted 3 months in my house. It was an excellent DVD-Audio player- that's about it. CD/SACD playback was quite sub-par and significantly poorer in many key areas. Over the top in dynamics, bass power. Lacking in fine detail and transparency. Playing each piece of music as if all were movie soundtracks. DV-50 is a high-end DVD/Universal player that has no place in any audiophiles music room. |
I already tried to clue him in on that "fact". He must be turning it on just before each listening session and then powering down after a few hours. |
SA11 (and all Marantz players)have inverted polarity from balanced outputs. You need to try better next time. You were listening to an inverted signal. Do you even understand what that means.......I wonder. DV-50 is the worst player I even owned for music playback. Again, home theatre is what a DVD player is made for. SA11 on the other hand, is the most neutral, detailed, open sounding machine to ever grace my system. In other words, it comes very close to analog playback. Turning a player on from cold and making a judgement call is rediculous. In fact, you must be firing up the DV-50 right before each listen. See what happens to it though after it has been on 5 hours. Closed in, with muddy/over powerful bass. One dimensional soundstage, with poor transparency. DVD audio is the only format that is truly outstanding on DV-50. I truly feel bad for those that are still in denial. Best things those types can do is to never read a stereo mag ever again. They really blew the call on the DV-50. Belongs is catagory c minus. |
You listened to the unit with inverted polarity, thru the balanced outputs. How can you be in a position to report on the sound. Polarity is correct thru RCA. I don't love the SA11, nor any digital device. The DV-50 is the unit that is very warm sounding. The SA11 sounds like the recording, the interconnects hooked to it and powercord providing AC. Transparency, air, ambience, detail, resolution are the hallmark "sound" of this player. Just as that I hear from my analog frontend. What analog system are you comparing DV-50 to ? Again, I am FAR from alone in my criticism of the DV-50. The DV-50 has the exact opposite sound as to what a high-end machine should do. It is not able to get out if its own way. Music should flow forth in a natural way as it was recorded. Not rammed down your throat as if it were all movie soundtracks. I do not own a Home Theatre system. Nor am I an Audio/Video Guru. I am into 2ch music reproduction on a stereo system. Perhaps that is why my views differ from the majority. I have not heard the DV-9500, but I can tell you that I even would choose a 3950 over a DV-50. Even that has a more open sound. |
Don't be so "envious", my nirvana never lasts too long. I'm already thinking about the next machine.(s) Nice write up. Glad you mentioned the importance of warm-up time. Ideally, a cd player should be left on overnight to sound optimum. Some players even continue to change sound over several days (ala- wadia) The SA11 is much more detailed, transparent and sparkly than previous Marantz units, from what I am told. Again, after it is warmed up. When I had DV-50, it sounded great until 5 hours warm-up time had passed. At that time, the sound became quite full and rich. High freq extension and detail lost air/transparency. That type of sound just drives me crazy. I'm not willing to accept that for 5K or 3k for that matter. It is more a critical view on the cd medium than any particular player. Just about every cd player I have ever heard tends to sound a bit midrangey and closed in on top. When you test SA11 again, be aware that there are 3 filter options and a noise shapper on/off. This player tries to mimic the delicacy and nuance aspect of recorded music. This type of sound (there are other players like this) usually comes along with a softer bass. They do this so that the bass energy does not cover up the detail. When I compare cd players in my system, it is always against the turtable. In almost every single case, the turtable is more open and extended on top. So far, only Wadia and this new Marantz sound even more open. The Wadia didn't cut it because it sounded skeletal and amusical IMO (bass and prat were also weak on wadia). I enjoy your enthusiasm and look foward to seeing what machine you ultimately settle on to replace the Teac. |
You guys are out of control!!!!!!!! I think the whole industry must be watching this thread. Incredible.....
I'll put my 2 cents in about what I heard in the Meitner gear. Easily the most open and non-compressed sounding digital I have heard. Run that thru a high quality tube linestage and I doubt there is "better" digital sound. |
When I had one, Richard Kern also had a unit. He was not able to come up with a substantial mod due to the circuit layout of the DV-50. I sold mine and he latter sold his.
Next I experimented with some of the inexpensive universal players, including the Pioneer. Truth is that the Pioneer had some similiar sonic traits to the DV-50. Most notably a full/round macro presentation to the sound.
Transports and their associated components are obviously at a minimum, half of the sonic equation of a given machine.
There are some older TEAC units floating about that did use VRDS. Perhaps these would be a good candidate to gut out and mod. |
Cary is about to introduce a new machine. Reportedly will have completely seperate signal paths for cd and sacd. Don't think it will support dvd. |
and cd players. Back in 1990 I had a Cal Aria Mk3 cd player with tube output. It was very musical but had limited resolution. I spent a great deal of time moding that unit myself. I can still clearly remember the space/ambience and layering that unit had. So, with the higher resolution dacs and low jitter clocks now available. It is probably not very hard for a professional modder to come up with a killer tube output machine. Yes, time has marched on, but tubes and digital still are a magical combination. I go about it abit differently with a solid state unit into a balanced tube pre-amp. That also gives a nice result too. But not as magical as having the tube inside the cd/sacd player. All this is very frustrating when these "modestly" priced moded units are smoking many of the high dollar units. Really should not be the case, but you can't ignore the evidence. |
Now it is being suggested that "the actual transport is not that important". Oh my.............?????? |
"There is nothing out there in its stock for that outperform(s) it."
Does this include a stock analog system ? |
AVGURU, fanatstic job in reviewing. You really gave us what I believe is a accurate reflection as to what you heard. I trust your ears. Now, be gentle in your post on SA11. Remember it is only a $3,500 stock piece of Japaneese consumer electronics. Plays both cd and sacd. And by the way, when hooked to the Marantz pre-amp thru balanced the signal is in correct polarity. |
And not only me of course. There are so few machines out there that can drive me away from my analog rig . Albeit, it is worth only 10K, but in the end even my set-up is mostly superior to digital. And how many digital discs are properly encoded at high resolution that you can purchase today. As a consumer, you really have no idea how that DVD-A or SACD was processed. And maybe 30% of my cd's challenge the table. The moded machines have a rightful place in this game. For a "reasonable" amount of $$$ you outperform higher dollar units. I applaud you for your efforts. |
Wow, what a journey. Thanks for taking me along. I have experience with 5965 family of tubes. Also the 6H30. Sounds to me like you prefer the sound of the 6H30 transformer coupled in a super short signal path. Thats what I conclude, cause tis what you are hearing. Nothing to hard to figure out. Keep signal paths ultra short. Direct couple a hi resolution triode to a tranny and wala.. magic. |
It's been that way since the very first machines that used tube output stages. That was almost 20 years ago. |
Have you thought about trying out a turntable again? Much less smoke and mirrors in that side of the industry. Although there still is the 3,000% mark-up on cartridges. |
Question about the bass performance of the APL 3910. I did not see any description of this aspect of playback. The APL is apparently very open, dimensional and holographic. That is expected when listening to a high-end tube signal. Is the bass deep, powerful and extended? Tubby or boomy? Slow or Fast. Soft but defined? To me this is just as important as getting the open aspect of playback right. Most players that get the openess right, also have a lean aspect to the bass. I have not heard one cd player that does both. |
Thanks. I wish that the APL was available for in home audition. I'm looking to buy something right now. Was wondering- Did you ever listen to the Krell SACD standard. About 6 weeks off for the new version. Anyway, I guess an inexpensive back-up player will have to fill in. Any sugestions? |
I could never listen thru a single ended pre-amp. Single ended source hooked to a balanced pre-amp can be ok though, depending on the design. Phono stages, for example- not much choice there. Balanced cd playback often helps free the medium from the "closed in" sound that is it's hallmark. And, certainly the balanced pre-amp should be hooked to a balanced amp. Even if that amp is not true differential. Balanced (differential) pre-amps IME, allow the system to achieve superior: Soundstage, defined images, tighter more accurate bass, lower noise floor, wider dynamic range. All without loosing musicality, if done right. |
I think it's time for APL to change his business model. Taking a 5,500 machine, gutting it- and then completely "rebuilding" it? Would anyone actually fall prey to that logic. Here is what does make sence. Contract with a company in China to have these APL players built up from scratch. Charge a fair amount, IMO that would be no more than 2k. And sell them by the boat load. IF APL is that good, then this should be a no-brainer decision. |
One of the main reasons I sold my DV-50 was due to the bass. I found it to be ill defined, and up several db from what is on the recording. Flat frequency response is what I look for in a source component. The APL Denon having "the same bass as DV-50 now"- I'm not sure what that really means. Was the APL Denon bass deficient? I'm sorry for being such an SOB. But cloning the bass response of a DV-50 is not an "upgrade". Improving bass control, definition, detail, accuracy, separation, freq response would be.
GC- Apology accepted. |
Alex, I think you are a really talented technician. With excellent hearing skills. Like many of us, I am very frustrated deciding on a source component. And, at this "mature" stage in my audiophile life, I have burned way too much cash. No longer can I spend 5K or more on a machine. I wish that you could find some way to bring the price down on your player. Surely there must be away to souce the Dennon DSP/transport. Then put that into a more economical box.
Regards
Bob |
Alex, I would like to know if your 6H30 circuit can support these two tubes. 6N1P and 6CG7. I use a tube linestage designed to take 6H30 and can sub, without any problem those two tubes. And if you have a bias or filament pot inside, the 6922/6dj8 should also work. For many people, not being able to roll the 6H30 will be a big negative. |
I listened to an interesting cd player the other day at a home based dealer. It was a new model from MBL and I think the model # was 1531. The retail is around 8k. Top loading and built like a tank. Something else to check out if anyone is looking in that price range. |
Why not start your own "Digital Modifiers" forum on a different website. |
Can't imagine that anyone would EVER place an order with Richard after reading his insulting comments. |
