Dynavector XV1s loading & phono


Hi.

For those of you that have owned the XV1s, just curious as to what phono stage you are using with yours (or have used) and what loading you are putting on it to make it sound great!

I have got a XV1s at the moment, but with the Cary PH301mkII tube phono stage, have never got it to sound great. I was using the XV1s on LP12/Valhalla/Ittok II/rignmat anniversary. The default loading for MC on the Cary is 680 ohms. I modified it to make it about 150 ohms which did make a substatial improvment, however, sound was still very dull, undynamic, muffled, very unexciting.

I have heard the TeKaitorua (next model down) on a Oracle/smeIv setup going thorough a very modest solidstage phono/integrated setup and that gave extraordinary results! Likewise with the Lyra Titan, used through a solid stage Lyra Connosieur phono stage was absolutely amazing. Some people have replaced their Titan's with the XV1s! I don't think I'm hearing anything close to what the XV1s is capable of at all.

I think it is something with my front end analogue setup as my CD playback sounds spectacular, WAY better than the XV1s/Cary combo in every way. Since I have blamed the Cary for the poor match with the XV1s, I have since replaced the unit with the Kondo M7 phono - but as this is just a standard phono stage, I have had to revert back to my very modest MM Linn K18II cartridge. The Linn/Kondo setup is better than the XV1s/Cary in every respect - probably equal to that of CD playback in my system. To use the XV1s with the M7, will require step up transformers.

Question is:
1) What sort of loading are you guys out there using with the XV1s and on what phono? Tube or solidstate?
2) Is my deck/arm/PS combo the main cause of the poor sound from the vinyl?
3) What stepup transformers would one recommmend to match with the M7 - there is obviously the Kondo SFz ... any other worthy contenders?

Thanks a lot for all you guys help.

Regards
David
linnmaster

Showing 7 responses by thom_at_galibier_design

Hi David,

I have a few inexpensive suggestions I'd like you to try, and please reply to this thread with your findings. There's no objective reason for an XV-1s to sound shut-in and undynamic on your rig.

1. Tracking Force:

Play with this first. It's something you can do at home and at little to no expense.

You will need a scale with .01 gram sensitivity. .1 gram will not do. Cartridges of this caliber will speak with a different voice, with as little as a .05 gram change, and the rounding error in a .1 gram sensitivity scale will not give you repeatable results.

Run the Dynavector and track it anywhere from 1.85 to 2.0 grams. IGNORE the advice about tracking at 2.5 grams. I have found in my personal cartridge (Schröder Reference and Triplanar tonearms on my turntables) has a sweet spot of about 1.87 grams. As I work my way to 1.92, the dynamics and pace suffer.

Comments you find referencing tracking the XV-1s at 2.5 on this forum and elsewhere are ill-informed, to put it kindly. In 5 different XV-1s based setups, the median tracking force has centered in on 1.90 grams.

The Dynavector importer agrees with me about this.

If you surf the archives, you will find numerous posts from both myself as well as Doug Deacon on the topic. In short, you want to track on the razor's edge ... the point slightly heavier than where you mis-track and NO MORE.

When you track at too heavy a force, not only will you lose dynamics, but the sense of pace will slow down. I kid you not.

2. Turntable Setup.

We all know about Linns and their sensitivity to suspension setup. I suggest you take your LP12 in for a suspension tune-up. The Dynavector, while extraordinarily dynamic is also very smooth. It may well be that what you had been previously perceiving as dynamics was more a system resonance or other "nasty". The revealing (and yet well behaved) nature of the Dynavector may be trying to tell you something.

If there is one sonic bias the Linn has, it's to present an "impression" of dynamics, so I'd definitely look into your setup.

3. Electronics and Loading.

Much as I'd love to sell you an Artemis phono stage, I'd like you to try to demo some other fine units too - including but not limited to the Hagerman Trumpet, Nick Doshi's Alap, and either an Art Audio or Kevin Carter's kit version of this phono stage, available through K&K audio. Kevin imports the Lundahl iron.

Yes, many of these units are not easily demoed, but an effort on your part to find some of them will be rewarded. Depending on where you live, I'm sure that members of this forum can help you out with this.

I strongly disagree with comments you read on this forum about the flaws inherent in step-up transformers, in spite of the high performance level set by some units which eschew them. This forum was recently polluted with several threads on this topic, so I won't go into that topic here. This is however another case of being able to achieve excellent results via many different architectures. It's all in the design and execution - not the architecture. Listen for results, and let the engineers argue it out.

While I would most certainly look into electronics first, the Lundahl transformers (LL 9206 from K&K Audio) are quite nice, and the Intact Audio custom wound trannies are extraordinary.

Your loading is in the ballpark for an XV-1s, which makes me think that there is more to your problem. I've seen XV-1s' loaded anywhere from 35 to 150 ohms, and certainly the higher side of the spectrum will favor dynamics rather than suppress them.

It is for this reason that your comment about favoring a reduction from 680 to 150 ohms puzzles me a bit. I fear you may be trying to address too many variables at once. It's easy to get lost.

I don't have experience with Cary's RIAA stages, but I have found that their power amps to tend toward a dark, shut-in sound and work well to compensate for aggressive speakers. Perhaps this design philosophy / aesthetic transfers to their RIAA stages? I don't know. Only a comparison in your system help you learn more about this.

As Sirspeedy points out, some tube swaps would be instructive.

My main point however is that you may well be working through come conflicting problems and hence, losing your baseline. You may be experiencing a loss of dynamics through your phono stage and hence you are dissatisfied as you load your XV-1s down to 150 (reducing dynamics). At the same time, the XV-1s is likely correctly telling you that 680 is too high. Herein lies your conflict.

Once you have addressed item #s 1 and 2, I'd look into demoing phono stages. This may point you toward an answer.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Hi Speedy one ..

I agree with Thom's comments. I think you should first try optimizing the VTF per Thoms's suggestions.

I didn't want to scare the poor felow, but yes ... you dragged it out of me (grin). .02 is definitely in the realm of audibility.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Dear Raul,

I take issue with your incessant proselytizing about the evils of step-up transformers.

The fact that you embrace a particular architecture means only that after years of dedication, you have arrived at a solution which works well for you and certainly for many others. This is something to be proud of.

Your fine product however, in NO WAY invalidates alternative system architectures.

There are many of us here - the great unwashed - who in our holistic view of musical reproduction can best connect with music by using vacuum tubes as a conduit to Nirvana.

If the "compromise" in using a vacuum tube based RIAA involves using a step-up transformer, we are fine with that, because in the end, we are making a connection, and this is what it's all about.

Surely, there are some very fine hybrids circuits which minimize our exposure to silicon and dispense with step-ups.

In the end, it's not the architecture, but the end result - connecting with music.

I realize that you are trying to be helpful to the original poster, and I respect your sincerity, but please, please, please ... don't speak in absolutes. Reality cannot be mapped in a linear manner.

Thom @ Galibier
Jonathan,

You never fail to inject a voice of reason and perspective into any dialog you enter.

Thank you!
Thom @ Galibier
Hi Shane,

Even with good cartridges like the XV-1s, Lyras, etc., I tend to set VTA as a "compromise" over a range of records and then forget it for the most part after that. There are times when I'll twiddle with it when something sounds off, because it's so easy to do with a Triplanar or a Schröder, but I only do it as a response to it sounding in need of change.

VTA isn't It's the front of my attention on a record by record basis. This comes more as a personal response than a technical one. I try to deal with my system in all respects so that I can focus on music. Once I get to pulling out all of the "tools", I find myself getting into left-brain mode, and any subtle technical improvements are negated by the analytical focus a shift into. As usual, YMMV, and I sometimes violate my own "rule" too (grin).

As far as tracking force is concerned, I believe I noted in my earlier post that this related to experiences with my turntables, which are unsuspended. I should have made this point a bit more clear.

With the additional resonant variable at play with a Linn (suspension), I'd consider the entire range of tracking force (1.8 to 2.2) to be fair game, although I'd guess that you wouldn't find yourself much above 2.0 g. With the VPI combo (unsuspended, but with an arm having a lower effective mass than Triplanar and my Schröder), you're likely correct in finding yourself more in the 2.0 range too.

My main point for the original poster (remember him?), was to play with tracking force, to observe the results (especially in terms of dynamics and perceived pace), and by ALL means to avoid the temptation to dial the force up the 2.5 grams.

My apologies to all if a double post appears. When keying directly into the web form, the 'ö' in Schröder (using a key sequence of alt-1 alt-4 alt-8 on a US keyboard), the page refreshed).

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Hi David,

Firstly, a big thank-you to Doug for your eloquent description of the process. I have to put a link on my website to this post as well as Larryi's follow-up. They're real keepers and deserve to be easily referenced.

Currently, all of my setup tips are on my Triplanar setup page. It wasn't my intent to discriminate in favor of Triplanars in this fashion, but rather something that evolved as I was supporting some customers' Triplanar questions.

The problem with setting anti-skate on a blank track is that the record grooves are responsible for generating skating force.

It's a vector algebra problem, but basically, the combination of the headshell offset angle on a pivoting tonearm, in conjunction with the overhang, drags the stylus forward and toward the record spindle as the platter rotates.

So, the drag of the record grooves, the recording level (size of the grooves - peak to peak), shape and polish of the diamond all contribute to the skating force.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
Hi David,

Click on this link ==> http://www.galibierdesign.com/prd_triplanar.html

The menu bar at the left side of this section will guide you through the particulars (the FAQs, Mounting, and Setup Guide sections).

As I mentioned earlier, quite a bit of this information is generic, and I really need to put on my webmaster's hat to create a dedicated tonearm setup resources page.

So little time ;-)

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier