My first post here, but found the topic very interesting so here goes:
I've done extensive comparisons of quite a lot of different capacitors, and have found the Duelunds to be without equal. Presently I use them in my home system and my car (I compete in pure passive car stereo).
The effect of using the Duelund caps (certainly also their resistors and inductors) has for me been akin to changing the entire system. I know how this sounds, but I am very very pleased with the results I'm getting.
Why they are apparently so much better beats me, it may be a combination of them using pure metal instead of the predominant use of plastic in the metalized designs and their brick like construction, but I don't know. To me anyway, the proof's in the listening.
By the way are you using the VSFs or the CASTs, I've got experience with both and the CASTs are really something.
Pics of my car if anyone's interested: http://www.buwaldahybrids.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2797 |
Volleyguy,
I believe the no plastic may indeed be a key feature. It would certainly explain why they sound different (superior) to all the others I have tested which ofcourse use plastic. This is of course based on my own findings. Others may well choose differently.
Regarding the inductors I found the difference compared to other air cores I've tried to be at least as big as with the caps. I use the CAST inductors, and have nothing to complain about. I once tried putting a powerful magnet against a foil coil I was using previously to the Duelunds, and could feel the inductor being ever so slightly magnetic. I tried the same with the Duelunds and could not feel a thing. May be they use a purer grade of copper?
I've found the caps to benifit of 14 days of full playing time, would be fascinating to know if you experience the same.
Your comment about the drivers being in phase doesn't relate to the components, but Duelund's Synchronous Cross Over I believe it's termed: http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/speak/STEEN.html from Harvey Rosenberg's homepage. |
Volleyguy,
If you find the Duelund caps worthwhile, I'm sure you'll be just as enarmoured with the inductors.
I've tried a lot of other brands and never want to go back.
In the end of course, it's your money. |
Volleyguy,
I believe so yes.
Why not try their resistors instead if you are wary of the cost of the inductor, do you have a resistor in series with the tweeter? I've seen people describe the resistor as the best bang for the buck upgrade you can get which mimics my thoughts. |
Volleyguy
In my mind no chain is stronger than the weakest link. I believe the qualitive leap you get from using a good inductor with your lower range driver is equally important to a capacitor. And why shouldn't it be, an inductor is no more than a reversed capacitor, with a rising impedance versus rising frequencies... |
Volleyguy
"I would like to hear some opinions on this but I think money on caps may be better money than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of???"
Without a shadow of a doubt. |
Volleyguy
"Steen Duelund (I am impressed with dedication to the hobby a throwback to the past)"
He was quite an enigmatic character on the Danish diy scene.
You'll find some more info here:
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/files/duelund/duelund.html
www.steenduelund.dk
|
I e-mailed Duelund about the connection to Jensen and copy/pasted some of their info into my reply. Now it suddenly looks at if, they made the whole reply?
Sorry for any confusion. |
Rauliruegas,
That may be so, but neither the Duelund VSFs in question or the Mundorfs are paper in oils, so I don't understand why that is brought up. |
Halcro
Yes, I use a Duelund 10.37 uF for example. I also value highly that you can get the exact value you need in one cap, inductor or resistor. |
Duelund Coherent Audio
to me
show details 2:16 PM (19 hours ago)
Reply
Volleyguy
I think the reason is that most air cores are made in the same way, quickly wound and done. However, the Duelunds are made in the same vein as their caps with a wet oil dielectricum which they are impregnated with under high pressure for several days. Supposedly this reduces unwant resonances in the inductor, which is very beneficial to the sound quality.
As I've said, I never use anything else, but the price difference is of course large compared to the Alpha Core.
The Duelunds are only made by Jensen insofar, that Duelund has access to the Jensen machinery (They are located in the same building) , otherwise they are as night and day especially soundwise, I own both types. The english Audio Notes are no longer made by Jensen, but I believe Kondo Audio Note (Japan) continues to use Jensen. Furthermore, they are no longer paper in oil, but use a plastic material (mylar). I firmly believe in the paper approach, but again each to his own, and Audio Note UK probably had their reasons. |
Volleyguy,
I find the CAST clearly superior. I know that some who use the CAST now consider the VSFs defective in comparison. I don't know if I would go that far, but they are quite something. They do require at least 14 days of break in to sound their best as they are a little dark in the treble at first, but oh my god, when they break in... |
Volleyguy,
Found this under the news section on the Duelund website:
They also use the CAST inductor, though he doesn't speak about it in isolation.
http://www.speakerbuilder.dk/content/getPage.asp?id=36
You may have to choose: English flag in the upper right corner, articles, tests, Duelund Coherent Audio
His findings seem to mimick yours. |
Volleyguy,
You should see the comment I made about the passive / active solutions in the context that many active filters in car stereo are DSP based, something I don't consider ideal.
I've heard both passive and active systems featuring Duelund components, both types have sounded great to me.
Regarding your statement about the vintage part of the Duelund design I agree completely. One would do well to remember, that the shift from metalfilm caps in paper and oil or wax to what we have today in the metallized designs, did not happen because of the quality in sound reproduction, but because they are smaller and cheaper to manufacture. As I see it, the Duelund caps are in effect good well proven tech taken bang into the 21st century. |
I use them, bang for the buck is through the roof.
Got this from Parts Connexion:
pcX has a made a massive buy of these resistors...we think so highly of them. All our most popular values will be stocked in great depth. As as result,spcX was able to get a great price - and those savings are being passed on to you, our valued customers !
The "most popular/common" resistor values will be $14.95 USD each
Seems like a stellar deal. |
http://www.duelundaudio.com/News.asp just to tide you over, untill you get your caps. |
Volleyguy,
I agree completely that plastic should be avoided, nigh on impossible as it may be
Paper/metalfoil caps to me also seems to be a way better bet than any metalized capacitor. It seems to me that the only reason why foil caps are not predominant in audio today relates to cost and ease of implementation.
I use Duelund CAST caps and resistors on my tweeter. My woofer uses a CAST inductor. Wouldnt have it any other way.
My Duelund car system is being developed, so wont bore you with that. Yet
|
Undertow & Volleyguy,
I asked Duelund for comments regarding your last posts on the technical differences between the CAST and VSF caps, this is the reply I got (my translation):
"While it is true, there is a marked difference between the CAST and the VSF (to our ears at least...) this has nothing to do with differences regarding VDC performance ie. the CAST is not inherently better at handling high DC or AC currents. To achieve that you need to look at either our VSF DC or CAST 630v variants as they employ more layers of paper between the foils.
The remark about the "casing" of the VSF being somewhat of an afterthought is off the mark. The cap being a waxdesign is after several days of vacuum impregnation capable of "holding" its own shape which we augment by using a special lacquer. The upshot of this is ofcourse that there is no resonating box around the cap a highly desirable trait in our opinion.
The CAST being an oil cap at heart is not able to hold its own shape as the raw cap is soft. We take advantage of this by squeezing it in the CAST proces meaning it gets as flat as we can make it. The CASTing layer then keeps it that way. But again this has nothing to do with the standard CAST being better at handling higher currents than the VSF. The design brief was primarily to create a cap that is even less prone to resonance than the VSF."
Me again:
Volleyguy,
When you get the CASTs be prepared for a very long break in period. I used them non stop for 14 days before I was anywhere close to the performance, I'm getting now. To my ears well above the performance of the VSFs. |
Volleyguy,
Running 2 way right now, so should have read woofer/mid.
Did anyone see this audiogon review of a Duelund upgrade of a Dunlavy?
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1164387495
His findings seem to mimick those in this thread. |
Volleyguy,
Congrats on those CASTs, we should start a club... ;)
Let the burn in take its time they'll only get better from now on.
I agree with you that the upgrade you get by targeting the cross over section is stupendous, we seem to agree on Duelund also. |
Halcro,
My CASTs seemed to get better and better over a couple of weeks. Don't get me wrong, they were hardly lacking to start with... |
Volleyguy,
I must say, I experienced a huge leap in quality on solid state when going to Duelund. You may be right that its even better with tubes
Found this:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1216741392&openflup&43&4#43
Apparently other people are joining the club. |
Volleyguy,
Exactly, the CAST has the lowest noise floor by far. At least compared to any cap I know.
When I originally thought about the CAST instead of the VSFs I was using, I asked the Duelund guys who also remarked that they found the noise floor to be substantially lower when using the CAST.
The detail that comes through is staggering. |
Volleyguy,
Yes, arent the CAST just fantastic? I was shocked myself
I consider them the best upgrade I have ever done.
Happy listening. |
Volleyguy,
I dont know, I find the Duelund CASTs to be so good, I dont see the need myself.
If you insist, I would bypass a CAST with a small VSF.
Or ask Duelund if they would do a CAST with a VSF dielectricum. Perhaps, that is your meal ticket
:) |
Humblehomemadehifi tested the CAST:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Sound: The CAST capacitor has all the same characteristics as the VSF but with added top-end clarity and together with that, more spatiality. They are (like the VSF) super natural, smooth, clear and open. The tonal balance is extremely neutral, especially audible with good recordings of acoustic instruments and the human voice, so maily with classical music. Like the VSF the separation of the individual instruments is very good and in an orchestra, the string section is a group of individuals rather than just a group. Soprano's have clarity without becoming hard to the ear, wind instruments (especailly the copper section) have that nice "metal" edge without becoming rough. Where in the past you had to choose between a Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil (very good depth and imaging) or a Duelund VSF (very neutral presentation) you can now have the best of both worlds in the form of the Duelund CAST-Cu. I did find they needed a couple of weeks use to fully come to bloom, so give a chance to burn-in. My current reference! |
Volleyguy,
I know these guys use them in their tube equipment. www.electrumaudio.com |
Volleyguy,
I would definitely rate them a lot higher also. In general I dont understand either why the Mundorfs are anywhere near the Duelund VSF let alone the CAST. To my ears, the Duelund are head and shoulders above the others. |
olleyguy,
Yes precisely, if you read the Tempo Electric review he states the Duelund VSF is 3 times better than the Mundorf. (Threefold improvement)
Which I agree with.
Personally, Im done with plastic, and I truly suspect the reason why we do plastic caps today is solely based on cost and size. I mean would you want to use 99% plastic speaker cables? |
