The 802N has a very old tweeter what can become harsh. So you need a warm souding amp. And you a lot of power and a high amperage to control the paper units of the 802N. |
Says someone from Holland..... |
That is nice to hear Wolfy. We are happy for you too!! |
I owned the 802N and 800S for 8 years and 2 months of time. I stopped after hearing the 800D. Why? Because B&W missses the most important part for the absolute sound in the world in highend. There crossovers are poor in depth. I did test a few Ayre amps in depth. Pass and also Primare give both a much deeper and wider stage compared to Ayre. There is depth but not in the same league as Pass Labs. A B&W 802N never will be good in giving a 3 dimensional image caused by the poor crossovers. It is that simple!! |
The 802D also cannot give a deep stage either. I listend to the 800D in the past. I knew I would stop here. I wanted to go to the next level. So what is the next level? The next level was a deeperand wider stage. What does a wider and deeper stage do? This makes the music you love more involving and more 3-dimensional. Wenn the spacse of the stage becomes bigger instruments and voices get for freedom and space during listening. They wil stand more loose from eachother. You close your eyes and suddenly you can see were every person is standing. The smile on your face is so much bigger. It is like in real that they are standing there. It is the most stunning way of listening to music. It is also very addictive, you want to listen for many hours. That is why I only want to sell 3-dimensional sound to my clients. I want to give them the thing I love so much. Wenn people listen to it, you understand that you never want to go back to 2-dimensional sound anymore. |
Yes it is!!!! Same as wenn people come to you to say that they like it a lot. Wenn people don't say anything often they don't like it. Or people tapping with there feet. After shows people often talk more about what was bad than about the good stuff. |
This year I sold my old audio rack to a person who owns the Denon AVP-1 and POA-A1 combi. After 30 min hearing my set his words were: so this is the end of my Denon set. Because 3D is superior to any 2D sound. It is also the speed and timing what convinces people what they often miss in there set.
amps which can give depth: Primare, Pass Labs, Pathos. These you also can get 2nd hand for good prices.
Onkyo is the only brand I know to date which can give deth in the price range they work. Wenn you compare there competitors like Denon, Marantz, Cambridge, Nad and Yamaha you will hear how much smaller there stages are even used with speakers which can give a deep and wide stage. That is why I call these brands 2-dimensional.
the 1000 series of Focal can give a deep and wide stage.
Monitor Audio is the only brand I know to date which can give depth with all there speakers they make. Even the cheapest ones. In the past I sold the silver series with Primare a lot. All other shops sold 2-dimensional sound for this kind of money. I was the only one who could dilver a 3 dimensional sound. Even for not a lot of money.
I also use Onkyo with Primare amps togheter. With Audyssey Pro ( measured at my way) I can even get a higher level. I can adjust the stage depth and wide as I want it to be. And I can even adjust the freq. respons to the sound a person wants. |
There are more way's to a 3-dimensional image. But there is a big but. In the world of audio there are unfortunately a lot more 2-dimensional products. These days I do not sell products anymore which give a 2-dimensional image. Wenn people ask for some brands who does give a 2dimensional image I give a negative advice. Wenn they still want it, it's ok with me. |
Stage depth and wide can be created by all parts in a system. In over 15 years I am in this business you hear many many amps, sources, speakers and cables etc. Wenn I use the words properties/talents I talk about how is the stage build of the part you test. What is the sound? Is it warm, clean or more to natural. How is the speed and timing? How much weight and drive does it give. And how much detail/resolution it can give. And how sharp is the individual focus of instruments and voices? How is the level of blacks. Blacks is the space between the instruments and voices with there acoustic information were they were recorded. Wenn instruments and voices become more palpable were they stand the level in blacks is higher. Wenn you have done so many tests you easily can give everything you test properties/talents. Wenn I listen to a set within 10 seconds I know what there is and what is missing.( with my own music) You use the right properties to complete the parts which are missing. |
What are the biggest difference between 2 and 3 dimensional sound. Wenn you visit other shops, shows and people at home most sets are what I call 2-dimensional. This means that everything you play most instruments and voices stand on the same line. There is maximum 1 metre of depth. Many amps and also speakers push the image forwards. I Always use simple recordings with 2 instruments and 1 voice to let people hear the difference between 2 and 3 dimensional. So it is easy for everybody to understand.
A 3-dimensional stage is a lot wider and deeper. Wenn you use it to the max the music will even become from beside your speakers. Many instruments ( depending on the recording ofcourse) can come from 4-5 metres from behind the speakers.
What is the difference what it does to you wenn you listen to a 3-dimensional image. Wenn instruments and voices stand full loose and palpable infront of you, you know in a few seconds that it is a different world. I can see it on the smiles of the people who are listening. During listening you can focus on every person who plays an instrument or who is singing. You can walk true the recording during listening. The level of emotion is so much higher wenn you play 3-dimensional. The distance between you and the music is smaller. It is more intimate. this is the word many people use wen they listen to it. I feels like you are pulled into the music. Wenn you are at a show I Always take a look at the faces of people. Wenn you see many smiles you know it is good. |
The world of audio is small. Everyone knows eachother. The thing I hate most is the high level of egoism. They are nice to you wenn you sell there stuff. Wenn you do not sell it anymore it suddenly changes a lot. The thing I dislike most is how many people in this business sell average or even poor audio for high prices. People are not informed by honnest information. Wenn you visit them at home you are often amazed about the low level the play. Even wenn they paid a lot of money. My direct approach will never be everybody's favorite. Because sometimes prefer there own truth. They want to hear what they would like to hear. Wenn you criticise there stuff they often feel like you attack them. So people can get irritated. People have to learn to look further. Also in audio. That is why I never will use the words you should buy this. I only say; you should listen to this. In real I have the advantage that I can make my words stronger and more honnest by letting people hear it. Because honnesty is everything for me. I do consulting in sound and vision because I love the freedom. I worked for over 8 years in audio shops. But for me it is no challenge anymore. I hope people will open there eyes to see there is more. You do not have to agree with me. Because every person can have there own opinion. |
I do not only talk about these brands. There are a lot more products I like or talk about. The people who have comments on me often owns products I criticised about. Or they have a different opinion. That is a forum for. You also have the freedom to give your own thoughts about it. Be open and say your own opinion. |
Usher is a different price league. I auditioned them at shows. I like the looks and also the sound and image. But Usher is working also at a higher level compared to Monitor Audio. It is difficult to compare. There are more speakers which can give a 3-dimensional image. Monitor Audio is not the only one. Monitor Audio there cheapest speakers even can give depth, this you do not find in the lower price ranges. Magico is a brand which also give a good 3D stage. But is working at a much higher level. |
You're from Holland, are you? |
I cannot and will not say anything wenn I didn't hear it at all. I Always try to be honnest and open. In the US there are a lot more brands and products which are not even available in Europe. And yes I am from Holland. |
I played for over 8 years with the best B&W speakers. I had a lot of fun with them in those years. But because I can test and hear so many different things you understand what is missing. I talk a lot about 3d sound. The main reason is that this is the most convincing part in highend audio. Wenn I would have gone further with the 800D I would have to accept the less deep and wide stage. Wenn you are aware of what it does with your music wenn it is played in 3D. It is difficult to go back. B&W still makes nice speakers, but I have grown in the search to the absolute sound. Here depth and wide is a pre. One thing about Pass Labs. Nothing is perfect, the same about Pass labs. It gives a deep and wide stage, but the indivividual focus within this big square is not that sharp. And instruments and voices are too big in proportion. I am very critical in everything I Judge. This is also about the things I own. I played for over 12 years with the Valhalla loudspeakercable. But I was aware that it was incomplete. So you look for cables and sources to solve this. Wenn you are a perfectionist like I am you only want the best. This level I want to achieve for my clients as well. Another example; Naim is a very popular brand. There amps do not give a deep and wide stage. But there are many people who like the sound and drive it gives. It is only my opinion that a 3-dimensional stage is more exiting to listen at. That does not mean that other people are not allowed to focus on a 2-dimensional sound with a nice sound and drive. I like many Audioquest cables and I sell it a lot. But there powercables I find not good enough. I am Always looking for the best things for the money. My focus is on quality. I can easily switch to another brand if this is better. For me it is that simple! |
NVP; just speak for yourself. And wenn you have problems with it. You also could have send me a private massage. If I do not like a persons comments or I don't agree I would have said it to him personally. The way you do it now is quite weak. |
For most of you this is a hobby. For me it is what I do for a living for over 15 years of time. I do not see it as work, because it does not cost a lot of energy. It is so much fun to do. Wenn you have the options to test and hear so many different things in audio. You are spoiled and everyone know's it can be addictive sometimes. I am not obsessed by a brand. First of all I love music. You want to feel as much emotion in the music you like as possible. Wenn music plays in full 3D in front of you it effects you differently wenn it plays in 2D to you. In 6 years of time I showed many people the difference between them. Stage depth and wide has a big influence on the music you play. It can set all the different instruments and voices of the recording free in your room. |
I apologize for the grammatical errors. I write fast and often do not read it back. And yes english is not my language. When I am critical it is never my attention to bash the product. It is just an opinion. The shows with the latest B&W are Always 2-dimensional. There is some depth, but not the level I want these days. 2 dimensional sound is often a combination by how the speakers project the image and how the amp projects the image. Ofcourse the room will always have a big influence on the sound. 6 months ago I listend to the latest 800D. The image was almost flat at the show. I was at the same show and I had a very deep and wide stage with the same music. This is something every person can hear and compare. Even without Audyssey I created often a deep and wide stage at people there homes. When speakers have a faster respons, the acoustic problems are less. So speed is Always a very important part in audio. To create the best possible 3D sound you need the right mix of speakers, amps, sources, conditioners and cables. |
You have to read better; " 6 months ago I listend to the latest 800D. The image was almost flat at the show." We are taking about the presentation at the sho were I was. This was the truth. People at the show found it not a good demo. In other situations it can be different. I even invited the people of B&W to listen to my demo. I was talking with them about depth and 3D. I am Always open and ready to discuss. |
This is a audio forum. Can we continue on the things were it should be about. |
Brands do not say a lot about what the properties/talents are of there amps, sources, cables and speakers. What we Always do is burn it in and then listen. Since I do this work you compare all the time. This how you learn the differences in sound, the way the image is projected, the speed and timing, the weight and layers in the low freq. and how much resolution there is. This you do with your ears. I listend a lot to clasical live music. I use the way I heard voices and instruments to be played in the right proportion. The first thing I Always do wenn I visit people for the first time is changing the position of the speakers. So the voice is in the middle and the instruments and voices have the right proportion. I also create a better balance focused on the acoutics of the room. I always use tape to make small changes to hear what will be the right place. Even with cables you can change a lot to the spound, drive, resolution, deptha nd control of the amp. |
The advantage of Audyssey pro compared to most other acoustic systems for amps is sound realism and more drive and resolution. With many you loose a lot of drive and resolution. Some were talking about the difference between the left and right speaker. because when one is in the corner and the other one is free. Often you will hear the focus is more forwared to the speaker in the corner. With Audyssey Pro you do not have this problem anymore. It adapts to the right volume a speaker gives at the place were it is set. I measure at different places and hights because I want to measure the best dynamics possible. This gives a huge improvement over the Audyssey way of measuring. With Audyssey EQ and volume I also get more resolution. With the Pass Labs XP-20 I did not have the clear level of words endings at sss, ttt or th for example. Most acoustic problems you get in the lowest freq. With Audyssey Pro they're gone and you hear more layers of the low freq. Because the acoustic problems covered these layers. |
I am glad we have a discussion about audio again :) |
I sold Tact in the past, also there room acoustic system. We were not a fan of it. The sound is far from natural. And it sounds even clinical. The demos they give are most of the time dissapoiting these days. I recently sold the Millenium Tact of a friend of mine. It was quite easy to get a much better sound and stage compared to the Millenium. I had sold him this one new in the past. I even see this as a fault of myself. Soon I will receive the new Audioquest Wild dog subcable wenn it comes out. It is a pure silver subwoofer cable with DBS72. This will give a better timing and speed. But also a big advantage in the freq range from 80-140hz. Time and technique go on and on, that is why audio is a never ending story. |
Last year I talked with Pass Labs about the idea of creating a new roomacoustic system in there pre-amps. Because the highend brands still do not make a good room acoustic system. Mctosh is using the old dated version of Tact. This is not usable for highend. |
All the demo's in the past with the 802N and the 800 Signature with Mark levinson were often dissapoiting. The best options I think are:
Musical Fidelity, Pass labs X0.5 series and Krell |
Musical Fidelity there amps are musical and very well controled. The sound has become warmer the last years. There is some depth, but not in the league of Pass Labs. In the past I gave shows for the distributer of MF. Compared to Naim the focus of instruments is a lot sharper. Naim is more focussed on sound and drive. The Naim amps do not give a sharp individual focus like instruments and also voices sound like in real. The other point is ther is almost no depth. At shows I Always asked the people of naim why it is so 2D. To be honnest many people who even work for distributers there knowledge is limited. Often they do not know a lot about music. What can I say! |
We also asked to naim people why people should pay so muc money for 2 dimensional sound. They had no answer for it. For me it is a normal question. We Always go to shows with a few people. We have our own music with us. We go to the dealer day. Often the day after the consumer days. Most of the people I worked with, friends or other people in this business have the same way of thinking I have. Maybe it is typical dutch, I don't know!! |
Maybe houses are bigger in the US? When I see the pictures of Wilson Audio speakers here at Audiogon I see bigger rooms. Often special audio rooms and room acoustic treatment. What I said earlier; speakers which need a lot of attention. I never was bashing the brand. Just read better!! |
I did not bash Wilson Audio. I wrote that there speakers need a lot of attention before you get a decent level for the money you paid. That is not the same as bashing a product. I even wrote that I love the looks and how it is build. But you need big rooms, often with treatment to get a good level out of it. And you need the right amps to control them and get a muscial sound of it. Stop with the bullshit talks about bashing. Read before you say this kind of nonsense! |
When are we talking about quality in audio? When is it good and when is it bad? Yess taste Always will be a very important part. For me music and also audio is emotion. I want to be touched. I want to feel the emotion in the music. A technical well measured amp does not say anything about the sound. This matters most. For an amp it is the same thing. The best amps can give a more realistic sound of instruments. When I listen to a violin in real the sound directly does something to your emotion. So when I listen to a set and the sound is so much different, It does not touch my emotion. That is why sound is the most important part in audio. Without it you will never become happy. Spatial resolution, how much detail can we hear. But it is not only how much we hear, where is the resolution coming from. The level of palpable image is important for the feeling. In real instruments and voices are extreme small and direct. So you need to place them blind where they are at the recording. The level of blacks is an important part how good the palpable image is in front of you. Depth is the part were music goes from 2-dimensional to 3-dimensional. Instruments suddenly stand free in the room but they even can vary in about 4-5 metres form eachother. This sets all the parts of the recording full free in the room. This is part where you see the big smiles on the faces of the people who are listening. That is the main reason why I only focus on a 3-dimensional sound. It is that simple! |
Listening to what.......Music....audio. This I do all my life. Today I went to a concert of Joe Bonamassa. Was really awesome!! |
It is not about age. I started when I was 6. I got a stereo tape recorder of Philips with tubes. In the beginning wenn I started in audio in 98 I was busy with it for 80 hours a week. It was that addictive for me. Audio is about understanding music and how to use audio to play music. I see you use the Quad 988. I sold Quad for over 6 years. Your speakers are ok, but mann you miss a lot to get the absolute sound in the time we live now. Time and technique go on and on. |
Just open your own ears and eyes :) |
What I said earlier we sold and ues the Behringer in the past. Audyssey pro is superior in quality and in use. With the professional microphone you can measure a lot more information than with many other acoustic systems. Audyssey EQ and Volume give you more resolution and drive. This you loose with many other acoustic systems. We work at mm precisions. When you do not use like this, Audyssey is useless. For most people who have this as a hobby it is useless. I also use the targetcurves. I read a lot about human hearing. It did cost me a lot of info and tests to understand it. |
