Audio Research REF 80S Reviews/Comparisons

I am a true believer in true balanced. The Ref 6 was optimized for running balanced and even though some may disagree, running true balanced is not only about hum rejection. Since my Ref 150 SE blew, I have been using my Ampsandsound Nautilus which offers both fake-balanced (transformer coupled since on SET amp can not by definition be balanced) and SE inputs. I have tried both. Even with the transformer coupled "balanced" inputs, running XLR's rather than RCA's sounds much better. My XLR's are Cardas Clear Beyond. My RCA'S are Analysis Plus Silver Apex. No doubt "it all depends" but with the Ref 6 the scary-real soundstage depth, height, and width collapses with RCA's. Bass tonality suffers too. 

As another example, I have a Luxman 750u headphone amp. It needed a minor repair (internal fuse). The tech who repaired if for me, Steven Leckrone, emphasized to me that the Luxman circuitry on his test bench made it clear to him that running balanced from input to output (the headphones) was essential for best sound. 

BIF, thanks. I could be mistaken but I don't believe ARC has authorized repair facilities any more. And I don't mean to argue unnecessarily but I have the personal view that phase angle means far more than nominal impedance. "Nominal" has a meaning-"of name". It along with claimed sensitivity means little. 

@ghdprentice Thanks!

Well, my new amp is set up and has about five hours of break-in so far. I am sure no one wants to read about such mundane things as shipping woes but I feel compelled anyway to talk about the condition of the outer ARC shipping box. UPS managed to beat it to within an inch of it's useful life. Multiple gouges that penetrated and pierced the box, destroyed corners, collapsing seams, simply destroyed. UPS had covered several sides with black and yellow tape warning it's employees that the box weighed over 70 lbs. I can only guess this tape motivates the employees to heave the box around even more rather than handling it with care. I have been in this hobby for a long time and have a wall of shipping boxes along one side of my basement, some of which were used for there-and-back return shipping of heavy amps for service or mods, several for very heavy loudspeakers, etc. and nothing approaches the condition of this box. I know the debate never ends but in my world living in Ohio UPS sucks the worst. 

Luckily despite the above I found no sign of damage to the amp itself and the box ARC packs at the top containing the manual, tools, and tubes was also fine. 

So now onto the little I can tell you. Kudos to ARC for finally realizing that no one likes removing 18 screws to take a flimsy top cover off an amp (the Ref 150 SE) and now they have implemented a clever slide-back and lift design secured by just three hex screws. The top cover is built of thicker pot-metal (that might be harsh) and with sturdier design and reinforcement. That said I could not help but notice that once re-installed with tubes in place the rear flange does not sit parallel to the top plate of the base. Not off by much and no one sits and stares at the back of the amp but at this price little things count. My manual included the usual ARC QC card indicating my amp was built in June of 2021. Warren Gehl's initials are on the final sound check line. The box containing the tubes also includes a screwdriver marked as being meant for adjusting the sensitivity of the ghost meters and yet the manual does not say a word on the subject. 

It is obvious that this iteration of the Ref series amps borrows from the Galileo Series in terms of the outer case construction. Beyond a doubt it results in a stiffer less resonant outer-shell though whether that does or does not affect ultimate SQ is unknown. I always felt the construction of the Ref 150 SE was curious with such a seemingly flimsy base supporting such heavy transformers despite any sign of actual flex. 

The first time I saw photos of the Ref 160M's I thought the amps were fuggly (Midwest term) and garish. The looks grew on me though unboxing this amp was my first opportunity to see one in person. I still can't say I love the look-though I love the look of the Ref 6 pre-but even after taking into account the pride-of-ownership bias inherent in life, in silver this is a handsome amp. And when powered up the ghost meters add not just flair but some elegance. 

Sound? Well, yes, I have sound. Streaming the Shins "The Worm's Heart" on Qobuz though my Aurender W20 into my SW1X DAC III Balanced via a combination of Analysis Plus Silver Apex (DAC to Ref 6) and Cardas Clear Beyond (Ref 6 to Ref 80S) powering Devore O/93's via Cardas Clear and hooked up the 8 ohm taps I heard sound but not music. Wooly bass and a jumbled mess of very familiar music. Ten minutes in I heard a glimpse of a broad soundstage that almost sounded like music but within five minutes more it lapsed back into the jumbled mess. I am being purposefully harsh. The amp is clearly fine and just needs to wake up. Over the rest of the first five hours (until my wife screamed that she had enough since I was outside entertaining friends despite only moderate volume) I heard signs of promise with the bass already firming up. 

As should be obvious, I can not yet compare the Ref 80S to the Ref 150 SE in terms of music reproduction. That will follow, likely in two to three weeks. 

Well, I am joining this club, meaning I am going from a Ref 150 SE to a Ref 80S. Mine was ordered today and will be here in five days or so and then I will of course need to let it settle in before I can comment. My pre is a Ref 6. I am the original owner of the Ref 6 and Ref 150 SE. My dealer informs me that I should hear a significant improvement. We shall see but the truth is that I don't need the 160 watts @ 8 ohms and 70 is more than sufficient. I have an eight watt SET amp (Ampsandsound Nautilus) that provides all the power I need. So for starters that means four less very expensive KT150's to worry about ($275/each from ARC to meet ARC's stringent testing and performance criteria for these very irregular tubes!). 

Something else that was not mentioned above but that is very important to me-this is the first modern ARC circuit design to fuse the output tubes. In all of my previous ARC amps dating back to a VS110 the output tubes were not only prone to arc-ing/blowing but when they did they would take out a paired resistor meant to protect the remainder of the circuit. You either had to be handy with a soldering iron or be prepared to take it in for service. 

So between the hopefully better sound and all these new features paired with the sexy looks.....I had to go for it. My Ref 150 SE needs some minor service and then it is going up for sale. 

Wow, thank you ghdprentice

charles1dad (always love your posts) and

tomic601

As I said above I will report back. My AD who has been an ARC dealer for many years pitched the new ARC trade-in program for the Ref 6. Instead of paying $3K to have one’s existing Ref 6 upgraded to an SE the offer is to send back the Ref 6 and get a brand new SE for $4.5K. My reply was "why would anyone want to pay an extra $1,500 for basically the same thing". He laughed and said, "yeah, well, the program was a response to the fact that they are badly backed up doing repairs and don’t have the time to do upgrades to existing units". ARC’s service department told me it would be 4-5 months before they will even provide me with a return authorization to send in my Ref 150SE for repairs! So while I appreciate the congratulations my decision to buy the Ref 80S was somewhat under "distress" (that being a reference to the definition of a true arms length sale as one in which the seller is under no particular compulsion to sell and the buyer is under no particular compulsion or need to buy). For two thirds of the price I could have purchased a pair of Manley Snapper monoblocs which are also true balanced and in light of my love for my Steelhead and love for how responsive Manley Labs is to any question or request for help I was very close to buying the Snappers instead. What I love about Manley is that their products are not only tried and true but then stay constant. The Snapper remains virtually unchanged for almost 20 years! Obviously the Manley approach is in stark contrast to the ARC approach, the latter of which reminds me of Apple phones.

Thanks dhite71 OP

My 150SE is not operable. When it does come back repaired I will  have a tough choice to make. Between the cost of repairs and a new tubeset that I am sure ARC will insist upon I am not likely to recoup a lot of money-relative to costs-on the used market so I may keep it. 

I don't expect the 80S to make a huge difference. I hope there is an incremental change for the better. Even if there is not, I will admit that the idea of less tubes to maintain, the new feature set, and the drastically better looks (the 150SE is pretty plain jane!) will be sufficient for me. But I will be frank-with the new four layer circuit board and what is claimed to be a better circuit design I am optimistic I will like the sound better. 

I would love to know who at ARC is at the helm of recent circuit design. ARC touts Warren Gehl as "design engineer" but I don't buy it. Ever since the tragic early passing of this guy, ARC (imho) has not been clear as to who the brains behind the operation is. 

@bifwynne 

My 80S is due to arrive today. My Ref 150 SE remains all boxed up and taking up space in our foyer waiting for word from ARC as to an RMA. I am constantly tempted to simply take it to my local tech. ARC not willing to provide a schematic is one hurdle and the high cost of KT150's is another. 

@bifwynne

1) What did you end up doing with your 150 SE? Once repaired I need to decide if it worth selling them or just hanging on to them for a while. Between being discontinued and repaired I suspect they won’t sell for much.

2) Although every loudspeaker is (duh) different, what is the nominal impedance of your Paradigm Sig S8 V3’s and what tap did you find best?

3) Did you play around at all with power cords? And related to that, are you going to through a power conditioner or straight to the wall?

I will never know for sure, but I suspect my 150 SE failure had something to do with plugging it into an Isotek Aquarius that in turn was being fed by an Isotek EVO3 Syncro. When my startup fuse and nearby resistor blew, the fuse blew in the Aquarius and I suspect the failure was due to inadequate current supply in the face of heavy current draw though I have basically no understanding of EE. Granted, I had been using my amp this way for over three years with no problem. But this time with the new amp I am going right to the wall which has a dedicated circuit.

So I called and had a very pleasant conversation with Evan. I explained my situation. I asked for a schematic. He asked someone else while I held and said "yes, we can send you the schematic". I gave him my email. Hours passed. Nothing. So I wrote three times asking for the schematic I had been told would be forthcoming and Greg Christensen ghosted my question and instead circumvented to how long it would be (6-9 months!) before I could return it. This over a course of three days when I brought up the schematic each and every time.

I am very happy ARC owns ARC again. I am very happy they are answering their phone again. I am not so happy about the backlog (though understandable) and the lack of a direct clear answer (avoidable and inexcusable).

Now all that said, a tech with tons of experience (Vern Leckrone of CT) told me that the best way to get my amp repaired the right way was with ARC and as I said above, between the lack of a schematic and the lack of reliable tubes I am willing to wait and pay the huge premium. The Ref 150 SE is a great amp so why not get it done right?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bxihgvsdvjdt2lg/IMG_1689%202.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rjx5gh3oz4ma19f/IMG_1690%202.JPG?dl=0

I owe ARC and Evan an apology. They are the best. 

@bifwynne Greg looked at the pics and said "that is strange". But when I read your first reference to the slow start circuit fuse I thought "yeah, that's what I think happened to mine".

I expect anything that goes wrong other than a power tube resistor to be an expensive repair. 

@bifwynne -No there is no epilogue. ARC told me that there are no authorized techs in my area though for some reason they thought I live in Florida. Just the same, I know that there are no authorized techs in Ohio. I am still in a holding pattern with the amp. I will likely take it to the tech I have referred to above-he works on pro audio gear mostly and knows his way around tube amps. If ARC were to give me an RMA anytime soon I would ship it off to them. I don't mind knowing that it will be five months before I get it back if I could just ship it off to them. Weird, illogical, but that is just where I am at. The Ref 80S is sitting in my downtown office where it was shipped to and I am in France on vacation. This weekend I will be home and setting it up. 

@charles1dad  

Thank you. As to writing, right back at you. I promise further listening impressions.  

Here is what I wrote in the "Devore" thread (Speakers) that I think also, even if partly, answers your question;

I don't want to give things away before the final vote tally is in, but the O/93's simply sing holistically, organically, and full of joie de vivre with my ARC Ref 6 and 80S fed to them with Cardas Clear SC's. Previously with my Ref 150 SE in the same system I heard a slight discontinuity between the woofer and tweet, a minimal but nagging dry spot and woodiness with male vocals, alto sax, and similar frequencies in the midrange band. That small niggling misgiving has completely vaporized with the ever-so-sweet Ref 80S. I have only 100 hours on the new amp and it reportedly needs 300-500. Dynamic synth drum attacks along the likes of "Get Innocuous" from LCD Soundsystem's second album "Sound of Silver" are still sounding soft and not as sledge hammer on iron spike precise as with my former Ref 150 SE (which fwiw I am holding onto for the heck of it) but I am confident that with more time that precision will arrive too. 

The point of this post is simple; don't underestimate how utterly great the O/93's can be in a small room with the right synergy. Pat Martino's guitar work in "East!" is thrilling with this combo. 

I only have about 100 hours on the 80S so far. I am hearing great things already. The sound is simply more coherent than the 150 SE. The 150 SE kept a better grip on synth drums and lower bass in general. The 150 SE always struck me as presenting a soundstage with placement of instruments/sounds and images that did not seem quite natural and instead a bit exaggerated (and I believe the Ref 6 preamp does this a bit as well). An artificial spaciness if you will. The 80 S does not have this characteristic and seems to be a better match with the Ref 6. 

A provisional update :-), the Ref 80S is sounding fine. Very fine. I am at 65 hours so I have a ways to go and the route was fairly choppy along the way. Never terrible but often just so-so and primarily lacking in bass snap. Today, Steely Dan's "Everything Must Go" and John Doe's new (and excellent) album "Fables in a Foreign Land" are deeply satisfying. 

Based upon my impressions so far the 80S has a bit softer but no less detailed sound than the Ref 150 SE. The 150 SE strikes me based upon memory as having a more "scientifically precise" sound with just a touch of dryness compared to the 80S. The 150 SE is a powerhouse and when called for it will push out bass that hits you in the gut with satisfying decay and tautness that I am still not quite getting with the 80S. But I love the sound of well-recorded electric bass guitar and on the new John Doe album I am smiling from ear to ear at how totally natural the timbre and tone of the bass sounds-something I did not get with the 150 SE. The sound of the drum toms sounds more timbrally (not really a word) correct too with the 80S. But best of all, I felt a slight nit-pick was in order with my Devore 0/93's in the upper midrange where things could sound a bit course and unnatural that I attributed to the design of the Devores. Now I question that conclusion-that perception is gone with the 80S!