Where did your friends buy the Psvane caps? Can you post their pictures?
I have just cut open one cap from our stock and these are the pictures - I am no plastic expert but the film does look like teflon, to my eyes.
I put the pictures out for everyone to see, maybe some plastic expert can share some opinion.
How did your friend(s) measure the film coming to a conclusion 'measured like mylar'?
We have been dealing with the people at Psvane Audio for tubes and caps for years. I met the owners and it has never come across my mind even remotely that they could outright lie. Our tube amp tech have these installed into 845 amps and have been running it over 6 months with no problem at all.
If a seller refuse to take return of caps with broken lead, that's understandable. Failed in 30 days? That should be covered by warranty. |
Not sure how to post pictures in the forum - but here are the links of the pictures posted to our website.
http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Psvane-Copper-Foil-Teflon-Film-Caps-0-47uF-600V-pair.html
click on image to enlarge.
I have seen many many knock-off products in China including Solen caps - but if someone actually counterfeit Chinese caps now, high end audio is about to become a mine field :)
Rachel @ Grant Fidelity |
Dear JAllen, it is not difficult to differential teflon from mylar, sophisticated equipment is not necessary. You just need to set a soldering iron to 270 deg. Celsius, and poke the tip onto the film, teflon can stand this temperature and mylar will melt like butter.
I am also interested in this cheap copper teflon and will buy a pair for evaluation from an authorized dealer here. Will let you know the results very soon. Stay tuned!!! |
I purchased some Psvane capacitors a few weeks back and immediately returned them after measuring them. I have a QuadTech capacitance meter that measures DF to six decimal places. Teflon capacitors normally measure about 0.000100 DF ("100"), with the better among them measuring 20 and lower (I measured one at 6 just today). The Psvanes measured 5500, 5500 and 3500 for the three caps I measured. One dielectric that measures that terribly is mylar. Given the small size of the Psvane capacitors for a 600VDC rating, combined with the very poor DF measures, I assume they were mylar caps. (Physical size of a capacitor is determined by the thickness of the plate and dielectric. Dielectric thickness is determined by target voltage and dielectric constant. The dielectric constant of mylar is 3.5, which is almost twice that of teflon, which allows a mylar capacitor to be smaller than an equally rated teflon cap.) |
Greetings,
I received the test measurements from my friend and he stated similar findings. The 0.1 600V Psvane caps were measured using method F.T.I.R. Fourier Transformer Infrared Spectroscopy, and the material was determined to be polyester (ethylene terepthalate) and the D.F. test at 1Khz was .005, strongly suggesting mylar inside. When he exposed the material to a soldering iron and heat gun, it melted....doesn't sound like the teflon I know and love.
I will be anxiously awaiting your findings....jallen |
To be fair I would purchase the caps from an authorized dealer, later today. |
Teflon is 'soft' to the touch compared to mylar.
If the mylar is the same as in a space blanket, it'll be 'crinkly' and harder to the touch. It may feel slick, too. Teflon may even stretch....though I've never messed with it in quite that thin a pices. Mylar shouldn't stretch.
The measures above? Good stuff and seem to indicate mylar.
for Serengetiplains: Isn't surface area tied in there as well? |
Magfan, yes, you're looking at total surface area as one factor determining overall capacitance. |
A note of caution from an old fogie.
270 C and teflon do not mix well. As I understand it, teflon begins to decompose and form HF, a very bad chemical. HF symptoms can develop over 24-48 hours, which makes it particularly insidious. In my experience, expect sore throat and a sudden onset of arthritis in your soldering hand. Also in my experience, if the exposure is very small, symptoms disappear in a few days or a week. But why tempt fate? Read the MSDS.
With a teflon dielectric, I like to keep soldering temperatures below 250 C, and even then I like to solder at eye level, so that harmful vapours go up. Good air flow doesn't hurt much either.
Read that MSDS. |
HF....also known as HydroFluoric Acid is REALLY bad news. In the body, it attacks CALCIUM which is pretty much what bones are made of. Thus, the potential arthritis makes some sense.
There are both liquids and gasses which have HF in them.
People exposed to hi-doses....such as people who work in the semiconductor industry, get calcium shots. This is some painful shit.
HF is used to etch silicon.
Teflon is used all over the semiconductor processing industry. Cassettes and ways to move wafers while exposing them to liquid acids are almost uniformly Teflon, though Polypropolene also is used since it is solvent proof. |
The Psvane caps I got from the authorized dealer is definitely NOT teflon, the DF is soooo high, and sonically it lacks teflon's clarity. Another fake product from China. |
Sniper9999 do you feel at liberty to disclose which authorized dealer you purchased these from? |
I am afraid some distributors have been deceived about this product, along with consumers. I would like to hear about what Grant Fidelity and Parts Connexion have to say on this matter at this point. Both have great reputations to protect. I wonder if competing entities have evaluated them...Sonicap, V-Cap, Rel, Audience, etc. I would love to hear their comments but understand the reluctance to avoid a net verbal brawl.
Great info. sniper9999, thanks, jallen |
Do not mess w HF if you do not know what you are doing! |
If your dielectric is heating up AT ALL; it's because you are not using a heatsink, or not using one properly. Something as simple as an alligator clip, attached to the lead between the component being installed, and the point being soldered, will keep you and your components, safe. NO component should EVER reach the temp at which your are soldering. |
there is no point to divert attention, I suggest anyone who has obtained his Psvane caps from reputed distributors like Grant Fidelity or Parts Connexion to have his caps' DF checked. There is no excuse for Psvane to claim that there are fake Psvane caps on the market since we know Grant Fidelity and Parts Connexion much better than Psvane. |
Response to Grant Fidelity,
I will post pics when they arrive in the mail this week. They were not purchased from you, but pc in the last 6 mo. Thanks for your responses, jallen |
Of course you are correct, Rodman. No component.
But what if you are servicing something with a teflon-insulated wire connected to a lug, insulated right to the joint? And if the factory used high temperature solder? Then the teflon might get hot, and that's bad.
I only intended to sound a note of a caution against a procedure discussed previously, about touching a teflon sheet with a hot iron. |
Magfan, I think the arthritic feeling comes from CaF2 precipitating in the calcium channels of the neurons. What is left over of the HF trades up the activity chart until it bonds into an insoluable compound, as found in the bones. As you say.
All academic - as you also say, bad stuff. |
Mr T- Point taken! Happy listening! |
I have received a segment from a copper teflon capacitor courtesy of V-Cap, and I have a foil copper segment from the Psvane. I will e-mail the photo to Grant Fidelity and if needed, mail the foil segments . I can say, the feel of both is not the same. If others want a photo e-mailed let me know or perhaps Grant Fidelity will post the photo...Jallen |
Here is the official answer:
China has been on holidays so I finally got hold of the technical lead person for these caps. Some clarification from Psvane Audio:
1. The Psvane caps were NOT designed to copy V-Cap. Instead, it's a high end cap designed for final sound with materials selected for sound. Below are the materials used in making the Psvane caps:
Copper foil - as seen from pictures provided by Jallen of V-Cap, the pure copper used by V-cap is of darker color as seen in high purity copper. Psvane caps use high conductivity Beryllium Copper instead.
Teflon film - this is where the clarification is much needed as raised by Jallen in the first post. Psvane caps use teflon shield for the leads, and the highest grade Polyester (BoPET) film from Dupont as insulation film. There may be future high end caps from Psvane Audio made with pure teflon films but these are still in lab design and testing stage. No sure release date yet because the final high end sound is what Psvane Audio is after, not the teflon insulation film. Design might be changed when final product is released and they will not release further details.
Given the above factory clarification, Grant Fidelity has corrected our website product listing by dropping 'teflon' from the description to avoid misleading customers.
The Psvane caps are still called 'Teflon caps' in the Chinese market and due to interpretation in Chinese language, it doesn't appear that local consumers in China are raising questions like we do in the west. However, Grant Fidelity is committed to provide Chinese hi-fi products with transparency and top service, we will refer the Psvane caps as 'Psvane copper foil caps' in all our publications.
As stated by Psvane Audio: the Psvane caps were not designed to copy V-cap; instead they were designed to go after the same high end market that V-Cap is occupying. Grant Fidelity believes that referring Psvane caps as 'Teflon caps' (as printed on the caps) has caused confusion among consumers hence some came to the conclusion that Psvane caps are fakes. There is merit to such a statement given the above circumstance.
However, Grant Fidelity has always sourced high end Chinese audio products for the sound quality - same sourcing criteria apply to our decision of taking on the Psvane caps in the first place. We carry Psvane caps for its sound, for its reliability and for what it can do for hi-fi sound in its correct application in electronics components. With correction of the production description, Grant Fidelity will continue carry the Psvane caps under the name of 'Psvane Copper Foil Caps' at the same price. All products from Grant Fidelity have always been priced according to its purchase cost and resell directly to consumers without retail mark-up.
In our opinion, the error in product description doesn't undergrade or undermine the sound quality of these caps and it doesn't change the test results that were published on our product listing page since day one by a high end audio manufacturer.
Psvane Caps are not fake V-Caps. It is simply another creation from the Chinese Hi-Fi industry by using different materials to deliver great sound as a final product. We apologize if our previous product description has caused confusion.
In terms of reliability issue reported by some buyers - Grant Fidelity cannot comment directly on the specific case because the caps were not purchased from Grant Fidelity. However, as myself has been in the product sourcing industry for nearly 20 years dealing with Chinese manufacturers, I can say that there exist the possibility that counterfeit caps could become available from China with the increasing popularity of Psvane caps in the Asian market. Using same packaging but different internal materials to make product bearing the same brand is a very common way of counterfeiting in China. Psvane Audio also commented that they typically select the best quality for their international clients, similar as on their vacuum tubes, and they were very surprised by the appear-to-be-high frequency of failed caps incidence reported on this forum. Grant Fidelity has never ever imported a single product through a middleman / broker in Hong Kong or China (as far as we know, some western businesses do purchase Chinese hi-fi products through English speaking Chinese brokers, but Grant Fidelity didn't, doesn't and never will.) We do not leave any chance for a product to be mixed with counterfeits. Grant Fidelity source directly from the manufacturer and only use a closely related party "Audio For Less' in Hong Kong which we trust 100% for shipping and logistics. Grant Fidelity do not resell caps or vacuum tubes to any other re-sellers (including the one Jallen purchased his caps from) so that our reputation will be guarded closely. We only provide caps and tubes to amplifier manufacturers to include in their final products for sale, but not sold separately.
It's not recent news that high end western brand audio accessories are being sold in China by unethical dealers who blend real ones with counterfeit together for sale. I have personally seen several cable brands and caps suffered from such loss. It's not a surprise such a counterfeit practice has spread to Chinese high end brands as well.
Grant Fidelity believes in creating value for end users by reducing distribution layers - adding another re-seller in the chain isn't the business model we are participating. From all our Psvane caps sales that we sold directly to end users, we have never had a consumer reported a failed cap. In the unlikely event if a cap does fail within warranty, we will certainly provide replacement without exception. In fact, we have started our amplifier factory order with these Psvane caps pre-installed on certain models. Amp factory has reported that all 160 caps delivered in the first batch all have past examination with flying color.
To find out how these Psvane caps sound (that's what really matters, not the plastic sheet used between the conductors, isn't?), Grant Fidelity will now provide 30 day return privilege on Psvane cap order from now until May 1st, 2012. As always, free shipping is provided worldwide. If you are not happy with the sound, just write us for return instructions then mail it back to us for refund(note the caps must not be damaged on the leads or cosmetically). That is how confident we are with the sound.
We hope the above has above has clarified the debate. I won't comment on the pictures provided by Jallen for the Psvane caps since those caps were not from us. Our cap internal pictures are posted on Grant Fidelity website product page (0.47uF/600V) for everyone to view in detail.
Thanks for reading and happy listening.
Rachel @ Grant Fidelity |
Went to Grant Fidelity and now my computer thinks I speak French! |
On the 1/20/2012 post, the comment from Grant Fidelity stated "I am no plastic expert, but the film does look like teflon". Why not at this time just tell us that the dielectric is BoPet/Polyester Film. It seems that at this time there was some understanding that the Psvane cap had some teflon property to the internal film.... Perhaps the caps are best identified as external copper teflon leads, internal copper polyester film. Consumer awareness in a time when many frauds permeate this industry is paramount to economic recovery in this industry. I appreciate all of your efforts in making the consumers aware of all beneficial information. |
I had hoped to hear from one or more of the other manufacturers as to what adequate product information should be expected. This information, without disclosure of intellectual property, can greatly assist purchasing decisions for consumers. Jallen |
With all due respect, Rachel (I understand you may simply be the messenger here), I feel compelled to remove some of the wool from the official response you posted by Psvane. >>> Psvanes Polyester/Mylar capacitor was marketed with Teflon film prominently used in its description- not Teflon insulation, or Teflon leads. This was used on the official Psvane website, Grants website, eBay ads, as well as the Alibaba listing by K&D Industrial. None of this marketing material referred to Polyester, Mylar, or BoPET. It takes a rather generous dose of hubris to put forth the explanation provided in the official response, IMHO. >>> That plastic sheet used between the conductors, despite your response to downplay its importance, defines what a Teflon capacitor is
not the lead material's dielectric, end-fill, outer wrap, or label. It is incongruous that the insulation of a caps lead material would deserve such strong marketing emphasis, when its simply a polyester (also marketed as Mylar) dielectric cap, IMHO. >>> Up until the last few days, Psvane was using the term CuTF for its online marketing, and its own website. This, despite my numerous e-mail requests made (since September, 2011) for Grant and Psvane to cease and desist using this V-Cap trademark of genuine OFHC Copper Foil and Teflon Film dielectric capacitors. >>> I'd like to present this scenario for your consideration: If a Psvane competitor used the term Treasure to market its own vacuum tube line and this competitor purported to use similar materials to Psvanes line of tubes, would Psvane consider this an attempt to "copy", or at the very least an attempt to dilute their brand, as well as unfair attempt to harvest search engine queries for Psvane's product trademark? Or does this scenario only apply to a company who has little hope for any enforcement of trademark protection in China? Best regards, Chris VenHaus V-Cap VH Audio |
To answer Jallen: if you read my answer line by line: it states clearly that "Psvane caps use teflon shield for the leads, and the highest grade Polyester (BoPET) film from Dupont as insulation film."
Not sure what you mean by 'Why not at this time just tell us that the dielectric is BoPet/Polyester Film".
Product information disclosure is up to the manufacturer and when different languages are involved, communication has extra barrier. I do not believe Psvane Audio intentionally mislead anyone and we as re-seller will provide as much information as we can and respond to inquiries as fast as we can. I haven't seen other re-seller to put up their answers yet - I look forward to reading their stories.
to answer Magfan: If your browser turn language to French, just clear your browser cookies from Grant Fidelity website. We have no idea how this happens with Google - our own computer sometimes turn to French too and there are no cookies on our site for identifying language. We are in Alberta Canada and none of us here speaks French. Sorry about it but all we can say it's a tech glitch that I have no knowledge to fix except delete site cookies when language changes.
Happy listening.
Rachel @ Grant Fidelity |
Did that last nite.
For a second, I though my computer had turned on me.
C'est la vie. |
Grant Fidelity, My reference was to the 1/20/2012 post. You clarified this in the 1/31/2012 post. My point was with the 1/20/2012 post, there seemed to be some confusion as the statement was made after cutting a cap open at Grant Fidelity and the appearance was that of "the film does look like teflon to my eyes" and not clarified until your recent post. My point being, there seemed to be some perception even in Canada there was more teflon present than in the leads. Perhaps more than one person there responding to the posts. Again thanks for your efforts, Jallen |
This seems unambiguous to me:
It is for improving your audio system performance. These Copper foil Teflon file capacitors are professionally manufacturered with Oxygen free copper foil and pure teflon film to achieve the best audio improvements over other type of caps.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/497035129/Psvane_Teflon_Copper_Foil_Capacitor_0.html
And this:
These Copper foil Teflon file capacitors are professionally manufacturered with Oxygen free copper foil and pure teflon film to achieve the best audio improvements over other type of caps.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?121838-New-Psvane-CuTF-Caps
(Polk Audio! Somebody should tell them!)
And this:
Psvane Reference Cap, High End Capacitor, handwound with Teflon Copper Foil!
http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Capacitors_High_End_Capacitors/Psvane_Reference_Cap_0_1uF_0_5_600VDC_3201
And this:
pcX has begun to stock the PSVANE Reference line of Copper Foil & Teflon Film Capacitors.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/econnexion/0911/sep11.html
And so on.
Mylar capacitors, sold around the world, marketed as teflon. I'm sorry, but GF's "translation" excuse doesn't hold water, cuz everybody's translating the same. |
I am surprised to Parts Connexion is on radio silence for this discourse. Are they even aware? There are some good names, hard earned reputations at stake here. |
Hi everybody, I am a Hong Konger and we Chinese are the same as Westerners, as far as the interpretation of "what a copper teflon capacitor means" is concerned----it must be refering to the foil and film material, NOT THE LEADS. There is no cultural difference, or any such errors caused by the difference between Chinese/Western language communication issue. Cheers! |
All excellent points Chris.
I think it's VERY clear here what was being done and it's pretty disgusting in my opinion. |
I am surprised to Parts Connexion is on radio silence for this discourse I am not Jallen, a few years ago they were called out for selling Oyaide knockoffs as the real thing. Claimed they didn't know, said they paid a lot for them. They've been in the business too long, that doesn't really fly.... |
This is a sad day for audio. The quick dollar seems to trump long term market viability. One more reason for the consumer to feel duped and cynical. Kudos to Audiogon for allowing the discourse and exposure. Jallen |
To answer to Chris from VH Audio:
1. The misunderstanding / error (or whatever you call it) of Teflon film or Teflon shielded leads on Psvane caps has been clarified in my previous post based on the answer I received from Psvane Audio. Whether the manufacturer calls their products Polyester cap is not up to me or you to police. You may direct your opinion to Psvane Audio directly. We simply describe a product based on information provided by manufacturer and if an error is identified, we stand up and correct it immediately.
2. I am not a technical expert and I fully respect your expertise in the industry. However, saying 'downplay' of our evaluation of the product as a whole, rather than on one specific material isn't very fair. I have no intention of downplay importance of any material used in a product - I simply stressed my opinion / preference of evaluating a product as a whole. If you don't agree with my opinion, that is perfectly fine - this industry is full of debate of what is better or what's best. I welcome such debate, but I don't welcome my statement of opinion being labelled as 'downplay', simply because your V-cap uses Teflon and you have great success with it.
3. "despite my numerous e-mail requests made (since September, 2011) for Grant and Psvane to cease and desist..."
Your above statement is simply NOT true. Your first and only email to Grant Fidelity raising trademark issue was dated Sept 20th, 2011 and I personally responded to you on the very same day, and our website removed the questioned content on the very same day. I don't know why you would say 'numerous email requests' because we have kept your email for record and there is only one of such email.
How many emails you have sent to Psvane Audio are not my business and I cannot speak on behalf of them or verify. However, please keep your public statement precise and accurate since you are pretty clear on accuracy of product information provided to public - other information should be treated exactly the same way. Your indication of sending 'numerous emails to Grant Fidelity' is damaging our public image, that's the very least to say.
I clearly recall that in Sept 2011 after receiving your email, we checked V-Cap site for 'TM' mark on CuTF and it was not to be seen then. Despite of such, we removed the wording from our site as at least industry courtesy.
4. The Psvane / Treasure scenario should be presented to Psvane Audio directly - apparently you have sent 'numerous emails' to them and wouldn't mind to send another. Grant Fidelity is a re-seller of products bearing Psvane brand; we are not their agent or representative on legal matter. Directing the case to Grant Fidelity in public will not help you to give Psvane Audio a lecture on trademark - I am not a messenger in this matter.
5. We both are in commercial business in the same industry - public forum may not be the perfect place conduct B2B communication, especially when potential trademark of a few parties is involved. If you have any further issues that you think Grant Fidelity should address, please contact me directly.
Rachel @ Grant Fidelity |
I wonder if Grant Fidelity will refund anyone that wants to return the caps that were fraudulently sold to them. |
Maybe a voucher for one of those third tier products nobody buys. |
I wold like to point out that besides not having a Teflon dielectric, the Psvane cap foils are made of an alloy that is 99% pure at the most (two nines).
"Beryllium copper (BeCu), also known as copper beryllium, beryllium bronze and spring copper, is a copper alloy with 0.53% beryllium and sometimes with other alloying elements....Due to its (poor*) electrical conductivity, it is used in low-current contacts for batteries and electrical connectors."
* my comment
No wonder many users were disappointed with the sound quality:
Mylar is rated below Teflon, polypropilene and polyestirene in sound quality (and measured DF).
Berillium copper is a springy, impure copper alloy with much lower conductivity than copper. The symbol for beryllium copper is BeCu, not Cu
IMO the products were misrepresented and the buyers are entitled to a refund and/or damages, according to US law. |
GF cannot absolve themselves from liability here as they are a direct extension (contractually I suspect) of the manufacturer.
Ignorance is no excuse.
Will be interesting to see if they step up.
Bottom line is if you lie down with dogs, you're going to get fleas. |
The DOWNSIDE of pure copper is that it oxidizes like crazy and the resulting oxide is a diode.
Not at all how I want a capacitor to act.
What is the conductivity of BeCu? And to go all metalurigical on you, how much Beryllium is added to these alloys? I know their must be a bunch of alloys with who knows what else added.
Question: What is a good copper alloy which has low oxidation potential AND the requisite good conductivity?
Failing THAT, does anyone SEAL the cap in an inert enviroment so the copper can not oxidize? |
Credibility is everything in the field of component parts. It's not realistic to expect the end user to dissect caps or other parts to confirm the materials claimed to be used. I was skeptical from day one about Psvane, Treasure and Grant Fidelity due to all this talk about sole distributor, counterfeit copies, testing and grading, etc. Now GF admits that the caps were falsely represented. Just speaking for one consumer, I will never buy anything associated with Psvane (or GF for that matter). |
I will never buy anything associated with Psvane (or GF for that matter)-Salectric
Couldn't agree more! |
U get what u pay for. If it seems good to be true then it is.
Hong Kongers and Chinese have different definitions of ethical representation.
Look at Mingda rudoeyconn caps :) |
re: Copper oxidation- Gold is the only metal foil that will not oxidize*. Any capacitor, that is designed for use in your electronic gear, will be sealed(generally hermetically), of necessity. *Nor will platinum or palladium, at room temps. |
From a dealer's perspective I agree with Rodman.
A few years ago I represented Consonance through their North American importer in Pennsylvania. I had a few problems and getting them resolved was quite difficult and in one particular case the parent company was downright indignant about providing resolution.
I see GF now represents Consonance.
Good luck with that. |
copper stability has nothing to deal with Psvane's credibility. |
Have any of you had opportunity to compare the copper or tin caps(v-caps) with others? |
I'm waiting for Rachel to exit the bunker and re-start the spin cycle.
Slice it thick or thin, it's still baloney. |
Hello Jallen.
I tested tin V-caps against RelCap teflons for my RIAA eq, one set on each side. Found the RelCaps more to my taste. The V-Caps appeared too shrill to both my wife and myself. Solen teflon were also very good. System was vinyl with ESL's.
Using a switch box, I tested larger caps as amplifier input filters. Solen teflon vs MIT Multicap styrene RTX went to Solen. RTS also sounded good, but with less edge - I'm not sure if this is desirable or not - the edge may be missing from my vinyl, and the teflon may be putting it back. MIT MFXS polypropylene sounded a little less precise than the RTX, and Solen polyp a little less precise than that. To my ears in an AB comparison.
I DON'T like teflon with digital.
Hope that helps a bit. |
