2. analog
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Analog experiment

Hi everyone. Some of you will remember my post from a couple weeks back about trying out vinyl. My dealer setup that old AR for me and I listened to it for a while and then listened to the same records on a new Pro-Ject RM 6 SB with a Sumiko Blue Point #2 cartridge. I liked the Pro-Ject better so I took it home for an audition in my system.

I borrowed some basically new LPs from my dealer's collection. Most of them are the 180 gm. "audiophile grade" limited editions. I got U2 War, Eagles Hell Freezes Over, John Lee Hooker, Pink Floyd DSOTM and REM Document. I was familiar with all these and own the CD counterpart of each album for direct comparisons.

I carefully setup the turntable making sure it was level. My dealer has been selling turntables for decades so I trust the other adjustments. I used the C42 to level-match the outputs of my Sony C333ES SACD player and the Pro-Ject, again for fair direct comparisons.

I listened to each album on its own on the turntable and then I went back and played the Sony in parallel. I switched between the two sources from my listening chair. In this case, I would keep the turntable 40 seconds ahead of the Sony so every 40 seconds I could hear the exact same passage in digital form. Hearing memory is short so I kept the interval short. I also made longer comparisons to be sure of my thoughts.

The bottom line is that the Pro-Ject didn't sound any better than my Sony. They had exactly the same tonality and soundstaging. On DSOFTM in SACD, the Sony was virtually indistinguishable from the turntable. I couldn't believe it. This is the first time I can't hear a reliable difference between two different components.

With other records, the turntable seemed to have a slightly more extended and weightier bottom end. But then the Sony had slightly better definition so it was a wash. After these tests, I see no reason for me to go with vinyl. You think maybe the phono stage in my C42 isn't good enough? Or maybe the turntable should be a better one? Well then, I am even less interested in vinyl if that is the case. The Sony costs about $350 these days.

I am sure some of you will be upset with my decision but I have to say I was excited to try it out and I kept my outlook totally unbiased. I loved the looks of the Pro-Ject and my dealer has an awesome collection of vinyl for sale at really good prices so I wanted to tap into that. But I don't see any reason to do that now. Oh well!

Arthur
aball
pauly
1,012 posts
 
Different strokes. Nobody should be upset at your decision, it is your money and you need to spend it on what works for you.

Personally, when I hear good digital setup vs. a good analogue setup, I cannot really tell which one sounds better - I enjoy both.

What I did find is that I can listen to analogue for many hours (4-5) in a single sitting without fatigue or loss of interest. With digital I found myself getting distracted after about 30-45 minutes and would normally not be interested in listening more than an hour and half tops.

I had a digital-only setup for about ten years. During that time I almost lost interest in the audiophile hobby and weeks went by without me even sitting down to listen. I went back to analogue about 5 years ago and since then my listening time has increased dramatically.

It may just be the fact that going through the motions (i.e. hassles) of playing LPs is entertaining to me? :-)

Regards
Paul
opalchip
355 posts
 
Without knowing the specifics of which lp's you used - keep in mind that many of the so-called 180 gram "audiophile" remasters are nothing of the sort. Many (if not most) have been digitized, slightly re-EQ'ed, and then pressed into mediocre vinyl with little skill evident in the cutting process. Then they sell it for more than you'd have to pay for a mint original pressing in many cases!

Also, some of the newer LP's you mentioned were ORIGINALLY digitally recorded and/or mastered. REM Document is DDD I believe, and U2 War is ADD - so those are not valid test subjects. Digital cut into vinyl is just degraded digital - it's a miracle the vinyl didn't sound slightly worse.

And certainly too, there are some very well done CD reissues - and I'm sure that DSOTM is one of them. But I'd suggest that if you plan on having eventually having a deep and wide music collection with many titles and genres - not just "audiophile picks", CD alone won't cut it.

Also, and this is truly not a value judgement - the type of music you demo'ed with seems more oriented to dynamics, slam, intensity - i.e. rockin' - which CD does fairly well. If you also listen to classical and jazz, I would argue that you need to give vinyl a further try as to it's ability to reproduce subtlety and nuance - such as comparing an early Rudy Van Gelder mastered Blue Note lp with a CD reissue. Or a Starker Solo Cello on a Living Presence RFR-1 pressing compared to it's CD counterpart.

Vinyl does have it's drawbacks, but for those of us who are interested in extensive collections of pre-1980's music, the original vinyl is very often much better than a CD reissue (if it even exists) - if only because so many CD's are poorly mastered or produced from degraded copies of master tapes.
opalchip
355 posts
 
p.s. Though I was somewhat critical of your software choice for comparison purposes, I also meant to applaud your A/B technique in attempting an "objective" comparison - something sorely lacking in many audiophile opinions. I use a similar "parallel" technique with a foot switch or remote. If I keep my eyes closed and go back and forth a number of times without keeping count, I'll totally forget whether I'm on "A" or "B" - which yields a pretty unbiased result.

Sometimes - when she's in a really good mood - I'll have my wife work the switch so i don't even know which is which.
hals_den
77 posts
 
Over the past several months I've been digitizing lots of 60's and 70's LPs for a friend. I'm using a Bang & Olufsen 4002 turntable with a Soundsmith SMMC20EN cartridge through a Grado PH-1 phono pre-amp to a $40 iMic to an iMac G5 and the free Final Vinyl software. The music files are all uncompressed AIFF files and are subsequently burned at the slowest speed onto CDRs. When I A/B the CDs played on my Marantz DV 8400 to the vinyl I have never preferred the vinyl playback and a lot of times preferred the CD and sometimes couldn't hear a difference. I have heard a phrase (analog coloration) and my theory is that the gross distortions that color vinyl reproduction actually tricks peoples hearing into a better listening mode. I love my CDs burned from vinyl and even sometimes cassette tapes. I can crank it up even with the subwoofer rockin' and hear all the glorious distortion of analog with the convenience of digital.
I'd keep the turntable as an utilitarian and enjoyable analog playback machine for abundantly cheap used vinyl and for numerous recordings never released on CD. That's if you can spare the space and don't mind the extra labor that LP playback deserves.
aball OP
2,016 posts
 
Thanks for all your thoughts.

Rnm4 - As I said already, I did listen to at least one side of all the LPs before ever turning on the CD player. This represented a little more than 3 hours of analog listening before going to CD. Maybe 3 hours isn't enough either but the differences were very clear the whole time so I think it gave me a pretty good idea before the quick A/B session. I will continue to listen to it this week and if the sound drastically changes all of a sudden, I will let you know.

I trust my dealer. We are very good friends and I spend many hours a month in his store. He has had numerous vinyl rigs in store and in his system in the last 30 years. To say he doesn't know how to adjust one, I feel, is incorrect. He is very meticulous (more so than just about anyone I have ever met) and wouldn't tolerate something not being perfectly set. I don't think wrong adjustments are to be considered as a variable here.

It sounds like my original suspicion was right. So many LPs aren't very good recordings - the same problem CDs have. Well then analog doesn't make any sense for me. The first system I ever remember my parents having when I was growning up was CD-based and the first piece of music I ever bought was on CD. I have about 1200 CDs and I have designed my system to make CDs very enjoyable. I took great care to match components that won't make me lose interest in CD playback after an hour. Instead I listen entire evenings in one sitting (except for getting drinks of course :).

I think that if you don't like CD playback, then the setup isn't right. Same story some of you gave me for the analog not sounding right. It is a two way street! There is a lot of overlap between the two so it can't be that one is always worse or better than the other - which I why I posted my results here. I see that some of you already agree with me on this point.

I think for my tastes and collection of music, I will be perfectly happy to stick with my CD players. If I really want analog, I can listen to my Sony and pretend it is a Pro-Ject playing a perfectly clean record. ;) Thanks again

A
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