I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.


I just can't clear my head of this. I don't want to start a measurements vs listening war and I'd appreciate it if you guys don't, but I bought a Rogue Sphinx V3 as some of you may remember and have been enjoying it quite a bit. So, I head over to AVS and read Amir's review and he just rips it apart. But that's OK, measurements are measurements, that is not what bugs me. I learned in the early 70s that distortion numbers, etc, may not be that important to me. Then I read that he didn't even bother listening to the darn thing. That is what really bugs me. If something measures so poorly, wouldn't you want to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? I learned that can be a big mistake. I just don't get it, never have. Can anybody provide some insight to why some people are stuck on audio measurements? Help me package that so I can at least understand what they are thinking without dismissing them completely as a bunch of mislead sheep. 

128x128russ69

In another thread, perhaps this thread, @prof clearly differentiates between subjective preferences and subjective impressions.  We are beating a dead horse, because we are ignoring the initial premise of the thread in some unusual, I would say bizarre special pleading that in the framework of the discussion is totally meaningless. It is self indulgent to even bring it up, and is brought up purely to advance a personal belief while ignoring relevance to the topic.

As has been stated too many times in this thread, and others just in the last few weeks. Almost no one doubt personal preference is not a thing and is not important. But as @prof eloquently stated, and I have in less eloquent fashion, that is not at all what we are ultimately discussing. We are discussing whether your personal impressions represent REAL changes in the sound that is being reproduced or are purely the result of the inconsistent nature of the brain to reach the same conclusion based on poor memory, and any number of other inputs including mood, visual inputs, other sensory inputs, etc. that are involved in processing the current environment and reaching an answer. As the weightings of those inputs are so variable over time, and memory so inexact, it is near impossible to reach objective conclusions based on subjective impressions. Hence why the insistence that subjective impressions can only be treated as objective conclusions, if, and only if, you make all attempts to isolate the inputs available in making the subjective impression. The so called blind testing's goal is to remove a variable from the outcome, namely our most critical sensory input, vision. This should be obvious to anyone who tries to compare to items. I won't insult you by saying we need to remove the variable of touch, and I hope you are not smelling or tasting your audio equipment, but the smell of a tube amplifier (from heat effects) if only evident while listening to it, could also impact a test.

I am sure someone will now post multiple paragraphs and multiple posts of unrelated self indulgent material that not only is unrelated but has no value in answering the question above, but I can only control my own actions.

 

You spoke in the context of a piece of gear evaluation opposing FIXATED subjective attitude and tastes to objective measures OBSESSION supposed to be able to describe sound ...For example evaluating a dac or an amplifier...

I spoke in the context of acoustic and psycho-acoustic experiments when subjective impressions and preference can be MODIFIED by a learning process in a progressively controlled room or in an acoustic laboratory...

Then i dont oppose subjective impressions to electrical measures and acoustic measures i CORRELATED THEM...

This is science...

Amir is a hobbyist verifying specs sheets so useful it is , it is no reason to dismiss a subjective listening learning process and negate any value to it compared to electrical measures...

All biases are not equal...

A positive acquired acoustical biases is not a mere negative biases, and none of these two is reducible to a mere deception or illusion...

Reality is more complex than children alternatives between objectivist and subjectivists... Sorry...

And we need a theory of hearing to undertstand any set of measures meaning...

You see i can control my post... 😁😊

We are discussing whether your personal impressions represent REAL changes in the sound that is being reproduced or are purely the result of the inconsistent nature of the brain to reach the same conclusion based on poor memory, and any number of other inputs including mood, visual inputs, other sensory inputs, etc. that are involved in processing the current environment and reaching an answer. As the weightings of those inputs are so variable over time, and memory so inexact, it is near impossible to reach objective conclusions based on subjective impressions.

It’s a stupid and useless debate to start with. People just creating a dilemma where there is none and using that to go off on whatever topic they happen to fancy. Lots of words that translate into chaos because people have to convince others they have some unique insight that others lack. I regret spending the time it took to read this going on about a non issue that adds no value to the quest for good sound. I did it because I like @mahgister’s open mind and often find his comments interesting. This one jumped the shark and missed the mark. Have fun. Cheers!

 

mapman

It’s a stupid and useless debate to start with. People just creating a dilemma where there is none and using that to go off on whatever topic they happen to fancy. Lots of words that translate into chaos because people have to convince others they have some unique insight that others lack.

Wow, you nailed this perfectly, @mapman. It's obvious that some here do not approach discussions in good faith, which is what renders them useless.

This one jumped the shark and missed the mark. Have fun. Cheers!

We need a shark with better timing, like this one.

All the best,
Nonoise