Vintage tubes - facts, science, technology & empirical evidence VS. marketing, myth & hype


Sorry. Long post. I hope you find the premise interesting and useful. And hope my writing below is not too bone-headed. Please feel free to correct or point out any misstatements or errors in my thinking.

This is not intended to be a controversial thread. At the outset I am not staking out a position. My questions are sincere and are not intended to poke anyone in the eye. The ultimate focus of my question has to do with the performance of vintage tubes as they compare to current production tubes. I am asking because it seems to me that there is a lot of marketing hype & perhaps some myth and wishful thinking when it comes to vintage tubes. There is also a rich body of collective experience. And, it seems, consensus that certain brands, factories, vintages and specific types of tubes are better than their peers and are "worth" the extra money they command. Of course, the principle of diminishing returns applies here. Right?

Do measures of voltage gain, transconductance, plate resistance, noise and microphony tell the whole story? Are they sufficient for predicting performance? To what extent do they predict longevity? Or is longevity primarily a function of empirical collective experience? What about the materials science aspect of vintage vs. modern tubes?

It seems that every company that produces tubes works hard to refine their design and balance innovation with "faithfulness to the vintage design", production processes, materials to make good sounding tubes. Even so, not all tubes from a given factory will perform the same, hence the testing and grading relative to the measures above and the consequent sorting into hierarchies of ascending levels of performance and price.

It also seems to me that performance will be closely tied to the circuit design and execution. A solid design would, it seems, be robust and produce excellent results with a wide range of tubes. A poor design might drive a tube in a way that is hard on the tube or requires a very specific technical characteristic for the circuit to perform well. Either of these situations could cause a user to come to completely different conclusions about what vintage/modern tube is "good" or excellent.

I have read some posts on this forum from certain individuals in which all "modern" or current production tubes or tubes produced by certain countries are dismissed out of hand. This seems like prejudice. Or it could, I suppose, reflect accumulated frustration with a given tube/brand/maker/etc as it performs in a given circuit.

I suppose I’m ultimately asking those who’ve more experience and who have invested more $$$ in tubes and tube rolling across various kinds of equipment to share their experience and opinions.

Thanks, in advance, for your patience. I hope to learn from those who are willing to share.




128x128markusthenaimnut
It would take a lot of reading and trial and error over years to become an expert on tubes.  Apparent differences between the really good ones and so so tubes can be minor..

Asking for recommendations on this forum or others will usually result in recommendations of numerous different tubes

I recommend you talk to Andy or Brent (Upscale is no longer recommending tubes from what I've read here), decide who you like working with better, decide what changes in sound you want to hear from new tubes, take their recommendations and try a few of them yourself to determine what works best for you. 

Talking to the manufacturer of your gear can also be a good way to find out what works in that gear.
Thanks all. Right now I'm getting ready to roll some 6922/E88C/6H23 for my phono stage. Looking forward to my conversation with Andy.
Mark - awesome and good for you ! 

One awesome tube Andy turned me on to is the Tung Sol 6550 Fairfield, NJ 1960’s vintage in the power supply of my ARC Ref5se….

Transformative !

also look at my reference system, it includes gear from your moniker - NAIM….
" I'm getting ready to roll some 6922/E88C/6H23 for my phono stage. Looking forward to my conversation with Andy."

You may want to consider finding out which pair are "the money" pair.
Likely just one tube will make a noticeable sonic difference.
Am I right in thinking that RAM doesn't manufacture their own tubes but rather rebrands (highly) selected examples from elsewhere?  Any idea re. OEM for RAM?