Living with unsolvable hum - Any audio detectives out there?


For over a year I have put up with a hum in my system, coming through the speakers (not chassis hum). I cannot make it go away. It seems to be related to the preamp because it stops when I replace the preamp. But I had my local tech hook up the preamp on his bench and it is quiet as a mouse. I've also corresponded with its designer, David Berning, who has been very responsive and helpful. But no luck solving it. I thought it may be related to the separate power supply's umbilical but David Berning said likely not. Earlier this year I even bought a star grounding component from Granite Audio and connected everything to it. Didn't work. After trying everything the engineer at Granite could think of (he was great), he was stumped too. These people have forgotten more than I'll ever know about the subject, so I gave up at that point and just lived with it. I had also tried everything they and a few knowledgeable friends have suggested (see below). But now I would like to take another swing at solving it. Any ideas? What kills me is that now I can't recall when it started, which would be very helpful to diagnose. The system sounds as good as I've ever had it now, and I LOVE the Berning preamp. So replacing it or other major components is not an attractive proposition for me.

For any intrepid detectives, here are the facts:

- Hum is typical 60 cycle sound- both channels equal volume of hum- loud enough to hear at the listening position, but just barely. Quite noticeable when standing at the rack.
- Hums with any source, not volume dependent, still hums with no source components attached (I even tried unplugged them from the wall too). But the hum stops if preamp is disconnected from amps.
- System plugs into a dedicated 20 amp line with eight plugs. Nothing else is on this circuit except my audio system. I had an electrician verify and tighten all the ground connections. The service is a relatively new 200 amp service. The electrician tested and found no ground issues or noise in the dedicated line.
- Tried shutting down all breakers in the house except my dedicated audio line. No effect, surprisingly. I had high hopes for that one!
- Tried cheater plug on everything including the preamp. No effect.
- Tried different interconnects between pre and power amps... No effect.
- Replaced all linestage tubes. No effect.
- Moved components around, moved the power supply, even used long interconnects to move the preamp three feet in front of the rack. No effect.
- Tried an extension cord to plug the preamp into a different AC circuit. No effect.
-The only thing I know of that could try, but have not tried, is replacing the power supply tubes, but I didn't bother because on the bench it made no noise for my tech.

My system:
- Power: Temporarily I'm using a Shunyata T6000 distributor (the hum existed prior to this, and the Shunyata didn't solve it). All Cardas Golden Ref or Golden power cords, except T6000 is plugged into the wall with Shunyata Sigma HC cord.
Analog: Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, Jelco TK-850, Cardas Golden Cross phono cable
Digital: CEC transport and Audio Logic DAC, Golden Cross interconnect.
Preamp: Custom Berning Octal tube preamp with separate tube rectified switching power supply, built-in Jensen transformer MC stage at 24x gain (on the high side, I know, but it sounds amazing compared to other winding options)
-Power amps: Quicksilver v4 monos with KT150 tubes
-Two REL G2 subs (hum existed before them, and persists when they are disconnected and unplugged)
Somehow the interaction between the preamp and other components seems to be creating the problem. Source components don't seem to matter, but amps are Quicksilver v4 monos. Speakers are Verity Audio Parsifals. Interconnects, speaker cables and power cables are Cardas Golden Cross.
Speakers: Verity Audio Parsifal Encores. No surround sound or home theater.

montaldo
You have already tried many things and gotten a lot of good advice so I will offer a few short items.
First, did David Berning offer you another pre amp?  For starters, it would be interesting to see if the problem continues with an identical model.  If it doesn’t, then you could make some sort of deal with him about swapping your current one for the replacement.
  Second, I don’t know what a cheater plug is, but I have had a few hum problems many years ago.  One was solved by a PSAudio device that turned hum into a light (nightlight).  It was the size of a match box, attached to the power strip, and the first hum problem that I had disappeared completely.  A few years later with changing components a nastier hum wasn’t defeated by this some I bought something called a “Humbuster” from Sweetwater.  This required plugging the problem component in to the humbuster and then plugging that into the power strip and was entirely successful.  I couldn’t tell if the SQ from the component in question was affected
Oh buddy, your Spidey Senses are tingling are they?... LOL

It’s always what you haven’t done... the way of the mechanic...

Worse yet, or done WELL and correct..No reason to doubt your own work.
No reason NOT to recheck others. I NEVER trust anyone... Brothers in all, that is the difference between a professional, and (NOT). Don’t assume stuff... Especially trouble shooting.. CRC, Check RE Check!!

You’ll get it figured out EVEN if you don’t stop the noise... BUT so you know, I’ve always figured out what caused the noise. EVEN if the person didn’t want to, OR couldn’t afford to fix it..

The issue for me is simple. I WON’T put up with it.. there is a difference... My stuff is BLACK. Almost spooky it’s so quiet..
Valve, SS, Class A, AB, D. Mix and match. Quiet a church mouse.

I have a buddy that says he doesn’t like it... YUP... Too quiet.. :-)

That’s quiet...

Happy Happy
Most Variacs are not isolated.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

I didn’t mean to imply that, JUST this is an option, a single coil, autoformer.. It is a great trouble shooting device, in lue of isolation.. cheaters, GF isolators, and a few others...

It will serve MY purpose..

The more you type, the more I learn..about you.. You related to Donald Trump. by chance?

Watch and LEARN... let the mechanic give it a shot.

I’m the one doing the bragging, ALL right.. LOL Let’s see if I can HELP... If not pick it apart AFTER that, ay... Just saying.

OP... excuse me, I had to make an adjustment, left cheek sneak? Romp..

Time to feed the chickens..

Regards


It’s the Preamp as you already know.

Both channels is a clue, perhaps a good one.

Some more investigation. Is the hum present at both low level inputs and high level inputs?

Connect only 1 high level source, one input at a time? Is it present at each input?
repeat with low level inputs.

Learn anything?

Have another system, i.e. office, shop, to move the preamp into? Good? If good, then there is some unholy combination of interconnects/speaker wires/crossover component. If ok on the other system, you can in good faith sell it to someone who lives in Lake Woes Be Gone
...........................

My McIntosh SS Preamp C28 had a faint hum on low level inputs only. I bought a box, sent it to McIntosh factory, it came back ’fixed’. Same low level hum, low level inputs only. How the heck can I sell it knowing that?

I took it apart, gave the evil eye to the internal ground connection to the chassis. Unsoldered it, stripped end of wire, removed paint from the area, replaced with bolt and lock washer. Gone.

...............................

Days gone by, FM antennas were like the plague.
@montaldo you posted...
- Hums with any source, not volume dependent, still hums with no source components attached (I even tried unplugged them from the wall too). But the hum stops if preamp is disconnected from amps.
Since the hum appears with the preamp only connected - try this...

Take a piece of wire with a small piece of insulation trimmed at each end
- touch one end to the neutral collar of any RCA or XLR jack
- touch the other end to a ground point

IF the hum disappears then the neutral side of the pre-amp is not at ZERO volts.

This is common with components that have a two pin mains plug or a wal-wart power supply.

A SOLUTION...
- build a ground lead by attaching a piece of wire to the GROUND PIN ONLY of a mains plug
- attach the other end to the NEUTRAL ONLY of an RCA or XLR plug of the pre-amp
- plug the RCA/XLR end into any unused socket
- plug the mains plug into any outlet

Hope that helps - Steve