The Carver Amp Challenge and the 21st Century and it's Failure


Some of you may be old enough to remember this article from Stereophile. Bob Carver claimed he could make an amplifier audibly indistinguishable from some of the best from Conrad Johnson. A high efficiency (not class D), solid state linear amp vs. a linear tube amplifier.


https://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge


Carver's approach was to feed a speaker via both amps at the same time using opposite terminals. The speaker itself was the measure of accuracy. Any difference in output between the two amplifiers would cause audible output.


What's super important here is Carver invented a new way to measure the relative difference of amplifiers with a real load.


That's kind of revolutionary from the standpoint of commonly published measurements of amplifiers before. Steady state, frequency sweeps, THD, IM and S/N all failed (to my ears) to express human experience and preference. I remember a reviewer for Audio, I think Julian Hiirsch, who claimed that these primitive measures were enough to tell you what an amplifier sounds like. The man had no ear at all, in my mind.  More here:


https://www.soundandvision.com/content/reconsidering-julian-hirsch

And here was Carver in 1985 cleverly showing that two amplifiers which measured reasonably well, sounded differently. We should also be in awe of Carver's ability to shape the transfer function on the fly. That's pretty remarkable too but not the scope of this post.


My point is, really, Carver showed us a revolutionary way to examine differences between gear in 1985 and yet ... it did  not become widespread.  << insert endless screaming here >>


As far as I know (and that is very little) no manufacturer of any bit of kit or cable took this technique up. We are still stuck in 1985 for specifications, measurements and lack of understanding of what measures cause what effects and end up cycling through cables and amps based on a great deal of uncertainty.


My points, in summary:

  • Most of what we consider state-of-the-art measurements are stuck in the 1970s.
  • There are a number of ways to improve upon them
  • No one has.
  • We should be a little more humble when asserting if it can't be measured it isn't audible because our measurements are not nearly comprehensive
  • I look forward to manufacturers or hobbyists taking modern equipment to pursue new measurement and new insights into our hobby.


Best,
E


erik_squires
Ralph ( @atmasphere ), I believe Erik is correct on this, in the first part of his post just above (but see below re the second part of his post). Note the description of the null test I provided in an earlier post (dated 3-3-2019):

The null test, as described by Aczel, was performed by connecting Carver’s amp and the target amp in the normal manner to speakers that were at inaudible locations, and connecting a monitor speaker and/or a meter at an audible location between the + terminals of the two amps, both amps being provided with identical inputs.

Also, note that the two amps were not connected directly together, but rather through a monitor speaker or a meter, presumably some sort of voltmeter having a wide bandwidth.

As I mentioned in that earlier post, though, two major flaws in Carver’s approach were inability to maintain a deep null in production (which he pretty much admitted many years later, in the TAS interview I referred to), and the fact that the deep null he obtained with his modified prototype was obtained with just one particular speaker load.

I’ve never seen a transfer function that incorporated distortion.
So, arguably, and with some induction (i.e. guessing) Carver proved distortion didn’t matter.

No, I don’t think that is correct, Erik. The transfer function of an amp is the relation between output and input, not just in terms of voltage gain or any other single parameter, but in terms of everything. If the transfer functions of two amps are precisely matched, or in the case of Bob’s prototypes matched to a null of something like 70 db with a musical test signal, then everything about what the amps are doing (gain, distortion of all kinds, noise, etc.) is presumably matched very closely. But as we’ve both indicated, just under the particular test conditions, including the characteristics of the particular speaker load.

Best,
-- Al

No, I don’t think that is correct, Erik. The transfer function of an amp is the relation between output and input

Right, but have you ever seen a transfer function equation that included distortion?

If the transfer functions of two amps are precisely matched, or in the case of Bob’s prototypes matched to a null of something like 70 db with a musical test signal,

Right, and -70 dB puts it in the range of distortion.

What I’m getting at is that if the two amps matched exclusively on gain vs. frequency and output impedance, then you’d get to this point. What’s left? Distortion and noise.

And since distortion is one of the main things that we audiophiles hear as differences between amps, it would seem that the Carver approach is moot.
Using the complex impedance of the speaker in between two amps is how it happened.


Amp1 (+) =====> (+) Speaker (-) =====> (+) Amp2


The goal being to null the voltage at the speaker terminals with music, which, as you allude to, could only happen if the impedance of the amps matched.
Now, thinking of this, Carver claimed he manipulated quite a bit, but it may have been all he did was change his amp’s impedance curve. Indeed in future amps, that was the only difference, whether you wanted low or hi Z outputs.



This still seems really problematic, as Al pointed out- the speaker used as a load and how that interacts with the amplifier is a pretty big deal!


Now if this is indeed all about output impedance, way back in the 1950s Fisher, EV and a few others made amplifiers that employed current feedback as well as voltage feedback. Voltage feedback in an amplifier reduces its output impedance; current feedback increases it. The feedback was controlled by a knob marked 'damping factor', 'damping control' or the like. With an amp set up like that, theoretically there's your 'transfer function'...