What the 802 and 3 Decades can tell us about trends


Hi Everyone,

For the longest time I’ve been saying that high end speakers can be very trendy. What taste-makers claim to be superlative sounds one decade may no longer be in another, and the trouble recording engineers have as a result. The ideal loudspeaker is not a lab instrument in a vacuum. While we can in fact measure what neutral is, we cannot also say you should buy X because of it, buy what you like.

The same is true for recordings. Played on different era gear, they may sound better or worse. How we each resolve this issue is not for me here, but I think we have enough data for the B&W 802 to talk about how it has evolved and we have a modern speaker designer talking about how differently he would voice the same speaker today. The S3 version is, I believe, from the early 1990s.

If you get anxious about dissecting your brand of speaker, and that happens to be B&W, this post is not for you. Just stop right here. On the other hand, if you are curious about contrasting takes on speaker design, in terms of calendars and designers, this may be a fun thread for you.

First, we have to start with the Troels upgrade of the 802 S3 because he includes measurements for the original as well as his mods:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/B&W-802s3_Upgrade.htm

Under "Measurements," look on the left. Troels knows what he’s doing, so we’ll take his work at face value. That is the measurement for the 802 S3 as he received it.

Let’s compare that to the modern 802 measurements from Stereophile, (2016, figure 3) here:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

The 1990 era speaker is flat from about 100 Hz to 1 kHz and then shelves down about 4-5 dB. Strong bass and presence, with subdued mid to tweeter response. Not exactly a V shape, and look in particular around 2 kHz, the trend there is upwards. This range is important as it’s been used to accentuate imaging after this.

Second, look at the 2016 measurements. A dip around 2-3 Kz, and two peaks, one at 4 kHz and one at 10 kHz. This is rather the trend for modern B&W for the past few years. That peaky response IS the B&W sound, and yes, it is very very important in giving them the character they have. As experts have written, the first thing buyers notice is the frequency response of the speaker, then smooth off axis response.

Lastly, lets look at how Troels takes the original speaker and re-defines it. He follows the classic B&K curve here. As smooth as possible, and downward sloping. There’s significantly less variation anywhere in the tweeter range, and this is no longer either a shelved or V shaped curve. Under his page, look on the right under Measurements to see his solution.

Objectively, of the three, Troels has the closest to a neutral sounding B&W 802. The factory 802 S3 and D3 models are tuned very differently from each other, in large part because the tweeter has significantly different sonic signature.

So what are we left with? Trends. This posting is all about trends and changes and fads and how we are all involved in this process. Think of this as a general law of audio relativity. What seems to sound neutral to us today, certainly would not have 30 years ago, and vice versa. Reviewers and buyers and recording artists are making this all up as we go along, so buy what you like because there will never be one right, perfect answer.
erik_squires

Erik

the real genius behind the BAF.

please see the attached graph that B&W England sent me many years ago.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4kkpoZsV6jJERspy7

Now this is for the 801 matrix, but it applies to the whole matrix line.

See how the db levels drop quickly on the 801 below 100hz. Trust me the graph for the 802 with the much smaller box is a far steeper slope.

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The BAF provides multiple benefits.

One it ensure a better slope to the bottom most octave and keeps the ohm requirements higher so it is EASIER on the amp.

Two - it provides for full range reproduction of the music if the notes are there - and in rooms which would not normally support this.

The only B&W matrix speaker that is full range without the BAF is the 800 matrix. But if it is in a room that doesn’t support the bottom two octaves ? That’s where the BAF bump fixes things.


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something else to note.

The B&W John Bowers Matrix Era coincided with the Krell / D’Agostino era. B&W and Krell were partners. Like B&W and Classe.today. fwiw B&W bought Classe but I think they - B&W - sold the Classe unit.

Now..... Dan D’Agostino had Matrix 800’s in his living room !

I know, because I have discussed this with him.

The BAF was so Integral to the execution of this Matrix line that Krell came out with their own version of the B&W BAF .

https://photos.app.goo.gl/r6jQSw1Cqu7NwtRM6

Years ago I tried 4 of the different branded B&W BAF’s out there and the Krell is the best one - I felt & the one I kept.

Cheers Chris
I remember Dr. Leach bringing this up in a lecture. Not sure if he mentioned B&W specifically or if it was just a general discussion about electro-acoustical summing.

All I mean to say is, that the bass alignment filters act far below where Trolls is working.  The bass level and midi/treble step would remain.
One thing I've noted looking at these charts is how smooth the S3 tweeter was compared to the D varieties. I had always thought the ragged peaks were due to the micro motors, but this proves otherwise.

Would be very interesting to look at compression levels as well in both, since smooth frequency and compression are things I seem to be unusually sensitive to.
Missed opportunity to hear what Alison sounds like unamplified as a true reference.... but everything you said is true and the first coloration is the microphone...

so, if your reference is anything but unamplified acoustic in a reverberat space, you are just on the Baskin Robbins flavorizer merry go round...

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