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Can you tell me why I didn't like the Reference 3a MM's?

So I recently asked about a new amp on the Amplifier forum.  I got a lot of good advice and ended up with a Pass XA25.  I really like this amp and the sound.  I have been told by Reno Hi Fi, Pass Labs and B&W, all of whom I contacted, that the XA25 is under-powered for my B&W 705S2 speakers.  But it sounds very good.  However a little flat when the volume is low.

So I am looking for some more efficient speakers.  I tried a used set of Reference 3a deCapo MM's, but they did not have the clarity of the B&W's and sounded a bit muddy at times.

I am looking at Omega Super Alnico HO's.  But I am wondering if the full range driver sound is what I didn't like.  

Am I wrong in thinking more efficient speakers will sound somewhat better at a lower volume?  Can you possibly tell my why I didn't like the MM's?  Something about their design or build?

Any thoughts on the Super Alnico HO's?  I don't want to move down the speaker sound chain.

Thanks much!  Any other speaker suggestions welcome!  But not horns.  I am not a Klipsch fan.
128x128jgoldrick
jbrrp1
423 posts
 
I am a bit surprised at your reaction to the Ref 3 speakers, as my experience with them is quite different than yours.  I ran a pair of de Capo i's for several years with a 35 W tube integrated (Primaluna Dialogue One), and I loved the sound.  They were very articulate IME, somewhat reminding me of electrostatics with their jump factor and delineation of musical lines (attributed to there being no crossover element on the woofer/midrange driver).  Regarding volume, one downside of the amp/speaker pairing in my system and room was that I couldn't get the volume knob up past ~10 o'clock, because things just got too loud.  This made it a challenge to get volume level just right, since the pot wasn't as finely sensitive at its lower end.

I actually tried a pair of B&W 805's in the same system/room and decideldly did not like them.  They just didn't have the life that the Ref 3's brought.  Maybe this is all about amp/speaker interaction?  Or room acoustics and positioning?
erik_squires
15,652 posts
 
This too is priceless. What you "see at shows" is like what you see at a cheap carnival with a funny house full of mirrors. You implicitly feel the same way but condescendingly conclude that those who like what they hear at a show must be intellectually and audiologically impaired.



You missed the meaning of my last two sentences, and you have to be a very insecure person to come to that conclusion.

does again show that you can train your ear/brain mechanism to ignore some signals and be sensitive to others. I see it all the time at shows.


It is clear to me that we train ourselves in how we choose to listen to music and audio equipment. If you hear cables and amps more than you do speakers, that’s you, and it’s personal. The ear-brain mechanism is plastic and flexible enough to allow for this, I think. There are often rooms I go to where other listeners and I hear entirely different things. No where do I ascribe superiority to either approach. Buy what you like.

I will say that from what I’ve read, the average listener finds frequency response the single most important attribute. If that’s true, then for the majority the room and speaker are going to matter most. If that isn’t you, then that isn’t you.


Mr. Squires-you seem to do nothing on this Board but pontificate as though you alone have all the answers.

The mark of a true gentleman is calling them Mr. right before you say they are bloviating. That’s a class act I aspire to reach.

Be best,

Erik

fsonicsmith's avatar
fsonicsmith
931 posts
 
Erik, it would have been easy, perhaps, for you to interpret my comments to mean that in my opinion source and electronics have a greater influence on sound character than loudspeakers, but I never said that. I only said they are ultimately more important to SQ. Put differently, I happen to agree that choice of loudspeaker has the largest effect on the character of the sound, just not the quality of the sound. 
Angelica Huston's nose might be the largest contributor to her facial character but it sure as hell does not have the largest effect on her perception as a talented actor. So to use that most unexpected analogy-I am sure-I would rather have an Angelica Huston with her mind and personality and a different nose in my cast of actors were I to be a movie director than Angelica Huston's nose on someone else who lacked her talent. Perhaps this registers with you. Perhaps not. I don't care a wit. 
jgoldrick's avatar
jgoldrick OP
138 posts
 
jbrrp,

I am limited on what I can do with the room.  Athough I did take a measurement with REW and and a mindsp mic.  However, I am at a loss as to how to relate that to actual room treatments.

The Aric Audio puts out a lot of gain. I have the gain almost all the way down and the volume, even with the Pass, rarely gets past 10 - 11.  It could well be amp/speaker interaction, as I was a bit surprised and disappointed myself, what will all the good reviews over the years.  Not that the sound was bad, just not as good IMHO.
fsonicsmith's avatar
fsonicsmith
931 posts
 
As already noted, an efficient lively standmount is something of a contradiction in terms. There are ways to get around your gain problem too. 
This comment has me scratching my head;
I really need to stick with Bookshelf, as my "listening room" is my garage and the speakers are about a foot off the ceiling and wall for protection.
Protection from what? I hope you don't mean your cars! Placing your speakers only a foot from the ceiling and from the rear wall is inherently problematic. Why? Well for starters that creates a room node problem. Second, most bookshelf speakers are ported and despite their name, never sound best on a book shelf. They need to be away from floors, ceilings, and walls. I am curious as to how you have them mounted there. 
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