PrimaLuna Dialogue Preamp = emotionless?


After years of running a PS Audio Direcstream dac directly into ATC active floorstanders, I decided to take everyone’s advice and add a preamp into the mix. I picked up a used PrimaLuna Dialogue with highly regarded Mullard CV4003’s and Phillips 5R4GYS’s, the tubes purchased by the original owner five years ago from Upscale Audio, a terrific source. My correspondents were correct about adding a good preamp: it transforms everything in a very big way. That’s the good news -- and bad. The latter is the reason for posting.

Before the preamp, this was a modestly warm system, for which the Directstream is known. It was one in which it was not hard to find myself drawn into the music and performance. Since adding the PrimaLuna however, I find myself watching -- or listening to -- emotion but not feeling a thing. That is, beyond marveling at the other characteristics of the presentation. After that, I’m left perfectly cold - 100%. This is not at all what I expected -- or desire.

So what to do... Is there anything I should look at with the preamp? What about other preamps, preferably tube ones? The skinny these days is that tube gear developers are trying to imitate the "neutrality" of solid state, the so-called modern tube sound some call it. With the PrimaLuna, I was expecting to find a point in between the classic tube sound and the common solid state one, but what I’m hearing is more than a little distant from that.

(Other than adding the PrimaLuna and not having Ultimate beeswax fuses in the DS and PL currently for other reasons, nothing else in my system has changed: modified Oppo 203 w/ digital output only, PS Audio P15 Regenerator and AC-12 power cords, and MG Audio Design AG2 ICs,)
highstream
less is more in the idea of electronics in the audio chain.

If one had a very satisfying sound quality with active speakers, before a preamp was added in..and then had ’perceptively’ worse sound quality after a preamp was added in, then..get rid of the preamp, and go back to being without a preamp.

I’ve had my hands inside of and torn down and modified some good 50 preamplifiers of all brands and quality levels, besides rebuilds of preamps for others. mostly done with single cause analysis in the chain of modification(s) done in each unit.

The conclusion is that if the load of the source as compared to the input of the amplifying device..if this pair is well matched..then.. the addition of an active preamp will likely be degrading. Ok, will inescapably be degrading.

Even a single piece of wire is degrading to sound quality. So a box of active and passive components, that the internal and overall distorting and signal changing/damaging interactions count into the hundreds...

..where this 100+ interactions device, is called a preamp..that if this device is added in, then the simple logic is that --- it degrades.

It’s supposed one single advantage is that it is supposed to better match impedance between source and input/load, and if that part is taken care of already..then the preamp is a clear cut degradation to the given optimized system.

in 35 years of playing with audio gear re my hands inside of it and making rebuilding, doing it all as single cause analysis down to single resistor changes and the like...this... informs me that preamps are almost always a degradation to the sound quality of an audio system. that their advantages are limited.

Where logically, by all possible methods of analysis..that a complex device like a preamplifier is 100% a source of signal degradation, and one must try and decide if that degradation is outweighed by the single benefit of better signal impedance matching (cables must be added into this calculation) to the input circuit of the amplifying device.

I know it would be best for me to encourage you to buy more cables as we make and sell cables, but in audio ’less is more’, and that --- is inescapable. It is due to how signal itself interacts with conductive materials, dielectrics, transistors, and so on.

Re the subject of fundamental single cause analysis..when one goes completely to ground in the most fundamental way possible, at the primary divide.. in the realm of electricity being the carrier for/of signal at the molecular interactive...We designed and built and sell the liquid metal cables and they are utterly unique in the realm of signal conductors of all kinds (in the world), being fully liquid at room temperature, and requiring the application of complex math surrounding Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) and higher level math electrokinetics to analyze.... and this math and science is unsolved at this time.

Basically put, people get a chance to hear what wire sounds like for the first time in their lives (collectively and individually), like a fish that experiences the difference of ’other’ (outside of water) for the first time ever.

This is difficult or impossible to do in audio, due to the generally hundreds of interactions in an entire system, that are all conflated - inside chains or series of black boxes. So we presented to all... for the first time in audio, period, the essential single fundamental -- as a difference. It is actually a really big deal, for those who think it through.

There is a lot of detail and points I’m leaving out of my argument (preamps and the idea of fundamental single cause analysis in the complex chain of audio), re things people will hold up to question, but think of them as being there, but unspoken.... as I’m not going to write a thesis or book chapter on it..
teo audio,
Well...I guess either one likes a preamp in the chain...or they don't. Most people I think prefer a pre for their home audio music making enjoyment...not to mention the switching capabilities. As always...ymmv 
"...if this pair is well matched..then.. the addition of an active preamp will likely be degrading. Ok, will inescapably be degrading."

I have nowhere near the hands-on experience you have to disagree with this statement but I think this is true if measured performance is the only yardstick used for making the comparison. The actual listening experience may or may not always agree with this assertion. The end-to-end synergy among all the components from source to speakers, including all the cables in between create an audio "ecosystem" that is somewhat unpredictable when measurements are more locally optimized. This could include certain elements such as added colorations which can make a system "sound" fantastic but measure poorly given the parameters used in those measurements. My 2 cents.
@ aolmrd124   I'm afraid you missed the jist of the OP and discussion. I didn't say the PL is emotionless, but that contrary to expectations the one I'm listening to is and wondered if I was missing something, along with asking about alternatives (in case this one doesn't work out). Thanks for the suggestions about tubes. I have listened to the NOS Brimar 5Z4G rectifier, a different tube, in a Lampi Atlantic TRP dac. I found it euphonic and very good all around, but had this sense that it was sedating rather than enchanting me. It turned out I wasn't alone in that thought. Certainly not all Brimar tubes sound the same, to wit the CV4003 I've added, although warmth seems to be part of Brimar's makeup, if user and dealer comments are to be believed. Any thoughts about how the 5RGY would be different than the 5Z4G?

@teo  I don't know what to say except that if you read what my OP to say that I found the PL addition worse, you missed it by a long shot. I said that it was a great addition, really a fantastic addition, in all respects but one, and I posted here to get help figuring out about that one. Speaking generally, of the roughly 10-15 preamp developers, same-dac users and others that have offered advice about adding a preamp, only two, including yourself, have argued against it. Even Paul McGowen of PS Audio, after decades of believing that a direct dac to amp connection is best -- it's even in the Directstream manual! -- has in the past week or two admitted on his blog that he's been wrong all this time, after finally doing some comparison testing with one good preamp or another. So yes, I know it's counterintuitive, contrary to a belief I had been operating on for several years out of keeping it simple and logic, but then so is a lot in audio.
Sorry high stream...after re-reading your post... I now see what you were saying.
Never listened to the 5Z4G so I can not comment.