Anyone compared Sanders Magtech vs. McIntosh MC462/52 or MC611/01 with Magnepan 3.7/20.7?


I know a lot has been written about all of these amps with the 3.7 and 20.7 series Mangepan's, but I was wondering if anyone has done a direct comparison and can describe the differences in what they heard?

Yes, I know, the best way is to demo them myself, and I will be this coming October... but until then, I would be interested in getting other's opinions to prepare myself for certain things to listen for, think about, etc.

Contrary to all of the popular opinions out there on the net that you needs gobs and gobs of watts to make the Magnepan's sound good, that is not my total experience. I have a new pair of 3.7i's (one month old) and am running them off of the 8 ohm tap of a McIntosh 6700 integrated 200 wpc amp. It actually sounds fantastic with plenty of warm bass, and depending on recording, can be chest pounding - from either vinyl or digital. My audiophile jazz recordings with piano, guitar, vocal, drums, and upright bass are the most accurate (compared to a live jazz club) I've heard.

The issue is, I have to turn it up to a volume that would be similar to what you would hear live - which is fine when in the mood, but at times I would like to listen at a lesser volume. There seems to be a certain volume threshold that when crossed over, the speakers open up and do their magic / crossed under, they all of a sudden lose their good charms - dynamics and bass all but disappear. 

So, from what I've read, what I'm experiencing is from lack of proper wattage from the power amp, thus I'm on the upgrade path - I'm sure any of the above amps (in the title) would be an improvement as the least of them is more than doubling my current wattage - but I'm curious if anyone has compared any of these amps paired with the Magnepan's. If so, do they improve dynamics and bass? What did you like about one and not the other and vice versa, etc.? 

Thanks and looking forward to hearing your opinions --cheers!

Jimmy
128x128jimmy_jet

@jimmy_jet, your post brings up a few different matters:

1- The Fletcher Munson Curve Erik alluded to (Google it for info).

2- The power requirements of the MG3.7i. Highly dependent upon room size and acoustic properties (diffusion preferable to absorption, typical with planars), preferred SPL listening levels, etc. In case you don’t know, Roger Sanders created two different versions of his amplifier, one for magnetic-planars, the other for ESL’s.

3- The property of the Magneplanar loudspeakers with which you have recently become aware: the "Maggie mist". That phrase was coined in the 1970’s in the pages of The Absolute Sound, and refers to the tendencies of Magneplanars to sound veiled and lifeless until a "certain" SPL has been reached.

Some attribute the mist to the very low sensitivity of Maggies, but I myself am dubious. The Eminent Technology LFT-8b is of approximately the same sensitivity as the MG3.7i, yet does not exhibit veiling at low SPL. Others attribute it to the moving mass added to the Maggie m-p drivers by the conductive wires glued onto the Mylar (the ET LFT driver has it’s very low mass conductive traces vapor-deposited onto the Mylar), still others to their single-ended design (the 20.7i and 30.7 have push-pull m-p drivers, as does the ET LFT midrange driver. All three loudspeakers have true ribbon tweeters).

Whatever the cause, the Maggie mist is something you will need to learn to live with, as it is incurable (certainly not by an amplifier). All speakers have flaws, the trick is in finding one whose flaws you can live with. If you haven’t done so already, I suggest auditioning an ESL or two. They provide many of the virtues of Maggies, without some of it’s flaws. But then, they too have their imperfections. Pick yer poison!

Hello Jimmy,
     It seems like you're describing the well known acoustics principle of how loudness effects human perceptions of sound which was first scientifically studied and documented in the 1930's by Dr. Harvey Fletcher and Dr. Weldon Munson.  The resulting Fletcher-Munson Curves are a bunch of curves which show how sounds of different frequencies and at different sound pressure levels have to be boosted/subdued in order for the human ear to perceive an equal loudness level across all frequencies. Therefore they are also called Equal Loudness Contours.  Each individual varies somewhat on how they perceive loudness by frequency and these curves, contours and graphs are generally based on statistical averages.

    The Fletcher-Munson Curve is a graph that illustrates an interesting phenomenon of human hearing.  When listening to music through speakers or headphones, as the actual loudness changes, the perceived loudness our brains hear will change at a different rate, depending on the frequency.

     Here’s what this means:

  • At low listening volumes – mid range frequencies sound more prominent, while the low and high frequency ranges seem to fall into the background.
  • At high listening volumes – the lows and highs sound more prominent, while the mid range seems comparatively softer.

     I believe you're trying to compensate for this universal and natural deficiencies in our perceptions of sound by utilizing a different amplifier.
     Logically, I would normally conclude that this is not possible.  Due to my personal and subjective experience, however, I'm not ready to eliminate a change in amps as a possible solution.  I'll just detail my experiences and let you determine their value to your situation.
     About 10 yrs ago, I decided to audition a class D amp in my system for the first time, mainly out of curiosity due to very good performance results I'd been reading from users on this audio forum and others.  
     My system was of decent quality and consisted of a Sony DVP-S7700 dvd/cd player,  VTL 2.5L tube preamp, Aragon 4004 MKII class AB amp and Magnepan 2,7QR speakers.  I ordered a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS stereo amp on a four week free in-home trial offer.
     I noticed immediately that the class D amp was a significant improvement over my previous mostly class AB amps I had used in my system such as Adcom, McCormack and Aragon.  Mainly its very low noise floor, overall well detailed but neutral presentation and its much better bass response, the best bass I'd ever heard my Magnepans produce.  I easily noticed these qualities right out of the box with no break-in time.
     In an effort to accelerate the break-in period,  I left the amp on playing cds almost continually, often turning the volume to low levels as background music as I was on the computer, reading or just doing other things.  So, it took me a little longer to realize that this amp sounded exceptionally good at low volumes, without the bass and treble being recessed in relation to the midrange as I was accustomed to always perceiving on music played at low volumes through my previous class AB amps.  
     It was almost as if this amp had an automatic loudness control that boosted the bass and treble proportionally as the volume was decreased.  What was equally unusual is that as the volume was increased , I perceived the natural balance of bass, midrange and treble contained in the music increasing in volume in unison from a low volume all the way to an extremely high volume. 
     I was so impressed with this class D amp, that I gradually replaced all the class AB amps in my combo music and HT system with class D amps.  I bought an Emerald Physics EP-100.2SE stereo amp, run in bridged mono mode, now drives my center ch speaker, a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks drive my main speakers and my original Class D Audio amp now drives my rear surround speakers.  
     They all have similar sound quality characteristics and I perceive the same 'automatic loudness control' quality built into all of them.  I should caution you, however, that it could be I'm the only individual that perceives this quality in class D amps since I haven't read of other class D amp users perceiving this quality.  
     But I I recall an interview with a well respected pioneer in the development and designing of class D amp power modules, Bruno Putzeys, in which he stated that class D amp designers are able to make their amps sound virtually any way they want.  Would they want to incorporate circuits in their amp designs to compensate for the well known Fletcher-Munson curves?
     I prefer the theory that they would and have but I have absolutely no proof of this besides my highly subjective perceptions.
     I would just suggest you may want to audition a good class D stereo amp, or good pair of class D mono-block amps, in your system to determine what you perceive before spending more on other options.


Best wishes,
     
 
    
  
  


  
    
 
 
     
 
   

   

     



In short, more umph and bottom end. For some of my audiophile recordings (using two step process or master from master tape), I’ll switch back to the 4 ohm tap because it is recorded with enough bass and gives it more air and soundstage. Also, you have to remember that with Mac amps using the autoformers, they increase in wattage and current  when you move up to a higher ohm output tap because the 2 ohm tap is guaranteed at least 200 watts without overheating or stressing the amp, etc. I read somewhere that someone worked it out that it was around 360 watts on the 8 ohm tap for this amp which Mac conservatively rates at 200 wpc.
"Mac amps using the autoformers, they increase in wattage and current  when you move up to a higher ohm output tap..."

I'd like to know where you read that since McIntosh indicates the same watts (and voltage) from 8, 4, or 2 ohm taps. The main difference between the different taps is the output impedance (damping factor) which can and does affect sonics depending on the length of the speaker cables and the way the speakers' impedance behaves as a function of the frequency.