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SAT 30K+$$ TONEARM: W O R T H T O H A V E I T ?

http://www.swedishat.com/

That is the everywhere touted and very expensive tonearm. Touted by all professional reviewers and obviously " satisfied " owners ( around 70 of them. ).

Here some reviews:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/swedish-analog-technologies-tonearm

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/06/sat-swedish-analog-technologies-tonearm.html

http://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/AirForce%20III_SAT_HiFi+_0817.pdf

and you can look elsewhere the TAS one and others.

Obviously that the proudly owners started to buy the tonearm because those reviews and trhough audio shows but mainly for the " great " reviews.

It was ranked class A in Stereophile and I know are coming two new models that inludes a 12" tonearm.

Other than the very high price I never was interested on the tonearm design due that is totally out of my budget. Its price cost what a decent whole audio system cost.

Anyway, a few months ago in an other analog forum and through a TT review the SAT appeared in that discussion thread and was here when I decided to analize this regarded tonearm design where I found out that those 30K+ dollars are a true money lost and does not matters of what reviewers and owners think about where there are not clear facts all of them are extremely satisfied with the SAT.



Let me explain a little why I said that through my post to MF:


"""""""

from your Stereophile review the SAT specs are as follows: P2S: 212.2mm, overhang: 22.8mm, offset angle 26.10° with an effective length: 235mm.


Those numbers tell us that you are listening ( with any cartridge. ) way higher distortion levels, that you just do not detected even today, against almost any other tonearm/cartridge combination.


Obviously that the SAT needs a dedicated protractor to make the cartridge/tonearm set up but we have to analize what those specs/numbers has to say:

the SAT maximum traking error is a really high: 3.09° when in a normal ( Jelco or Ortofon. ) 235m Effective Length tonearm Löfgren A alignment ( IEC standard. ) is only: 1.84°

the SAT maximum distortion % level is: 2.67 when in that normal tonearm only 0.633

the SAT average RMS % distortion is: 0.616 when in normal tonearm only :
0.412 ( Löfgren B even lower: 0.37 ).

All those makes that the linnear offset in the SAT be 10mm longer than in a normal tonearm ! !

All those are facts and you or Mr. Gomez can’t do nothing to change it. Pure mathematics reality.

You posted in that review: """ Marc Gomez has chosen null points of 80 and 126mm instead of the more commonly used 66 and 121mm. """

that’s a deep misunderstood on tonearm/cartridge alignment input/output calulations in the overall equations used for that alignment:

NULL POINTS WERE NOT CHOOSED BY MR. GOMEZ BUT ARE PART OF THE OUTPUT DATA ON THOSE ALIGNMENTS CALCULATIONS.

In the same is not true your statement: """ the more commonly used 66 and 121mm. """

that " commonly " just does not exist and only depends of the standard choosed for the calculations.

There are several other things in that SAT design that not only are not orthodox but that has a negative influence in what we are listening it:

he said that the tonearm owner can change the bearing friction levels and this characteristics could tell to you that’s a " good thing " but it’s not but all the way the opposite because makes not a fully 100% steady bearings.

Ask you a question?: why the best top cartridges use cantilevers of boron and not carbon fiber, it does not matters that laminated carbon fiber the SAT has.

Carbon fiber is way resonant no matter what. In the past existed cartridges with CF cantilever and sounds inferior to the boron ones. ....................................................................................................................................................................... the designer was and is proud that the tonearm self resonance happens at around 2.8khz, go figure ! ! !. It happens way inside the human been frequency range instead to stays out of that frequency range. """"



Dear friends and owners of the SAT: way before the mounted cartridge on it hits the very first LP groove and against any other vintage or today tonearm you have way higher distortions that per sé preclude you can listen a real and true top quality level performance and does not matters the audio system you own.


What we can listen through the SAT is an inferior quality performance levels with higher distortions. Obviously that all reviewers and owners like those heavy distortions but that does not means they are rigth because and with all respect all of them are wrong.


Some one send the link of what I posted to the SAT designer and latter on ( I do not knew he read my post. ) I ask for him for the information about the effective mass of the SAT. He gave me a " rude " answer and did not disclose that information that in reallity was not important in that moment.



I have to say that at least two professional reviewers bougth the SAT tonearm., both with the Continnum/Cobra TT/tonearm. At least one of them say the SAT outperforms the Cobra one ( maybe both, who knows why bougth it the other reviewer. )

The credentials of the SAT designer are impecable and really impressive ones but no single of those credentials speaks about audio and certainly not on analog audio.

He is a true " roockie " enthusiast ( and I say it with respect.) and obviously that is welcomed in the high-end " arena/area/ring " where all of us are learning at each single day. Any one that’s marketing an audio item has a true merit and this is not under discussion: SAT designer has his own merit for that.

You that are reading this thread permit me to ask: what do you think, overall, about?, at the end audiophiles are the ones that has the last " word " or should be that way.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.






Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas
chakster's avatar
chakster
6,144 posts
 
@advanced101 thanks for the link, here is a part of the article about alignment from Marc Gomez of SAT:

The alignment that I use for the SAT arms is based on the Löfgren equations conventionally used by many other manufacturers. Although most manufacturers calculate their geometry based on different recording association standards for values of the groove innermost and outermost radii, I opted for another set of values that better represents the vast majority of real-world 12” LP records produced, based on my own measurements. The values given by the standards are limit values and most recordings never go that far Page 4 of 8 into the record. I specified the outer radius to be 143mm and the inner radius 75mm. This gives a somewhat higher angular error at the portion of records with musical content from 75mm and inwards, and at the same time, a consistently lower angular error than with other traditional alignments in the area between the led-in groove and 75mm. This is a conscious choice to enjoy a lower angular error than with most traditional alignments in all but a few tracks of a typical record collection. The null points for the SAT arms are located at 80 and 126mm. Ultimately, this was a choice of enjoying a consistently higher level of fidelity for 95% of the time over having less angular error on 5% of the tracks. - Marc Gomez 

invictus005
597 posts
 
80mm and 126mm... Inner groove distortion will be through the roof! 
halcro's avatar
halcro
2,664 posts
 
Well it may be true that Marc Gomez has a Mechanical Engineering Degree and studied materials science....but reading his 'explanations' for the 9" preferred tonearm length.... he seems to lack the necessary Structural Engineering qualifications to complete the picture...?

He includes a diagram titled "Effect of length in vibration amplitude and frequency" and shows a diagram (and speaks of) a cantilevered "ruler" of a short length compared to a longer length.
Now on the face of it, this all seems reasonable and is certainly true of a pure cantilever.....
But a tonearm with the cartridge resting on the record is NOT a pure cantilever.
It is a PROPPED cantilever and all the Bending Moments, Shear Stresses and Deflections are entirely different (and change with the degree of VTF on the stylus) to that of a pure cantilever.
So the SAT arm has been designed by Marc Gomez as a tapered tube (from pivot to cartridge) which mirrors the stresses of a pure cantilever much like other tonearm designers like SME have also done.

Continuum Audio Labs with their Cobra and Copperhead tonearms utilised a team of qualified University Experts with access to advanced software and technology to model the arms using NASTRAN, PATRAN and DYSTRAN finalising in the complex process of Gradient Shape Optimisation using Reshape.
THIS is the true shape of the stresses involved in a 'Propped Cantilever' and the true shape for maximum RIGIDITY for that application.
The SAT tapered tube is NOT the correct shape for maximum rigidity of a propped cantilever whether it's 9" or 12".
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas OP
12,779 posts
 
Dear @advanced101: Well, what SAT did it was a paremeters manipulation  choosing stays out of IEC,DIN or JIS standards. SAT says that those standards parameters almost never happen but I measured 20 LPs and I found out no one that even the SAT numbers  ( two of them are shorter. ).

So, that manipulation seems to me that more to be for practial terms is more for better measurements that almost never happens. But always exist trade offs and one of them in the SAT is longer linear offset.

Nothing is for free. If we want better distortion/tracking numbers than the SAT ones we can have it changing from 75mm to 76mm ( inner groove ) and from 143mm to 144mm ( outer groove. Former numbers are the SAT ones. ). 

The numbers that I posted way before in this thread and as I stated were trhough IEC standard with out any manipulation.

Any one of us always can change any or all the input parameters/values with Löfgren equations/calculations.

@invictus005, yes you are rigth and problem with that is that because the parameters where out of the standards the length at what you said " inner grooves "  is an extended length from normal: almost 20mm.

Well that's the SAT choosed and dedicated alignment.

I think that 3 days after this thread started I ask to one of the SAT owners to try Löfgren alignment according IEC standard and I gave the new parameters including the new P2S distance, unfortunatelly and even that he posted here he did not tell us if he tested in that way or not and what find out.
He said ( before. ) that he tested a normal alignment and did not likes  but I think was because he did not change the P2S distance but stays with the original SAT one.

@halcro , very good point. 


Anyway, good that SAT disclose its alignment parameters.

R.






Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas OP
12,779 posts
 
SAT says: """  higher level of fidelity for 95% of the time over having less angular error on 5% of the tracks. """

that's a tricky statement with foundation in a non true premise that the most inner groove is at 75mm when it's not.
SAT says that made it its own measurements:

"""  values that better represents the vast majority of real-world 12” LP records produced.... """

I don't know from where found out that 75mm instead 60mm. As I said I made a quich research with around 20 LPs an today  I made a new measurements with these LPs:

Dire Straits ( Love over Gold. Vertigo ), Witches?Brew ( LSC ), Berlioz Fanthastic Symph. ( Reference Recording. ), Folk Singer. MoFi ( this was the only that is over 70mm. ), Claire Marlo ( Sheffield ), Rebeca Pidgeon ( Chesky ), P.Barber ( Modern Cool ) and Lyn Stanley ( Potions. ).

All but the MoFi are inside the IEC standard and totally out those SAT 75mm. I checked at random too some London, Decca, Mercury and Vanguard and happens the same.

So the former statement is untrue because at least around 25% is out of that 95% SAT talks.

Now, I'm not against what were the SAT alignment parameters choices but in what SAT said and write as an advantage when it's not the way SAT says.

In the link for @advanced101 SAT speaks of the importance to resonances control/ stifness, moment's inertia and the like and as they showed in the past when every customer has the rigth to know the specs tonearm specs SAT always not does it like the alignment subject that after more than 2 years that started to sell the tonearm finally disclose  but again even that's an important parameter for the customer and with all the SAT explanation on  the 9" vs 12" tonearm length SAT still does not disclose the 9" and 12" effective mass ! It's nowhere its site.

I think that problem is that customers just do not cares about  but if I want to buy a 30K+ tonearm I need to know, especially after read all what SAT says.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.






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