Ugraditus is calling....again. Phono stage?

Hi Uberwaltz,

On page 13 (pdf page 8) of the manual for the VTPH-2A, near the upper right-hand corner, the following statement appears:

We recommend that the VTPH-2A be used with a line stage having an input impedance of 50,000 ohms or higher for optimum performance.

If as I suspect the input impedance of the 2170’s unbalanced analog inputs is in the area of 5K to 10K, or even if it is somewhat higher, it will not be a good match for the majority of tube-based phono stages. There are some exceptions, of course, including the Chinook for which the website description recommends a minimum load of 2.5K, and specifies a nominal output impedance of 91 ohms (which is much lower than is typical for a tube-based phono stage).

More generally, you’ve probably seen a rule of thumb guideline stated that to assure impedance compatibility of a line-level interface the input impedance of the destination component should be 10x or more greater than the output impedance of the component providing the signal. What is often not stated, unfortunately, is that the 10x ratio should be applied at the frequency for which the output impedance of the component providing the signal is highest. Most output impedance specs are based on a mid-range frequency such as 1 kHz. It is very common for the line-level outputs of tube-based components to have output impedances at deep bass frequencies that are much higher than that specified value, often 2K or 3K or even 4K ohms. That rise at low frequencies results from the output coupling capacitor that is used in the majority of tube-based source components and preamps (and also in some solid state preamps). The impedance of a capacitor increases as frequency decreases.

So in the case of a line-level output supplied by a tube-based component the highest output impedance within the audible frequency range often occurs at 20 Hz. If Stereophile has reviewed the component the measurements section of the review will usually indicate that output impedance. If that impedance is not known, and is not indicated in published measurements, then to be safe a considerably higher ratio than 10x should be applied to the specified nominal output impedance, IMO something like 50x or 75x.

Also, to clarify a common misconception I should add that failing to meet that guideline does not always mean that there will be an impedance compatibility problem. It depends on how much **variation** there is in the output impedance over the frequency range. But meeting that guideline (at all audible frequencies) assures that there won’t be an impedance compatibility problem. In this case, though, as I said earlier the majority of tube-based phono stages will almost certainly have problems dealing with a load impedance of 10K or less, and in many cases dealing with even higher load impedances such as 20K or 30K.

Finally, it might be a good idea to contact Lyngdorf and ask them what the unspecified input impedance of the 2170’s unbalanced analog inputs is. Chances are it is very low, since as I mentioned the balanced input impedance is very low, but if that is not the case you would have a much greater number of suitable phono stages to choose among.

Best regards,
-- Al

@almarg 
Thank you for your patience and time, yes I missed that on the Herron as was just looking at the last page under specs!

So then for example the gold note is listed as having output impedance of 500 so x10 or even x20 to be safe would be between 5 and 10k which should also make it a possible contender in the match up stakes for the 2170.

However I believe you are correct that my next step should be to have Lyngdorf confirm the unbalanced input impedance which could be at odds with the small info gleaned as it actually has two different sets of analog inputs.
One set of 2 single ended inputs come standard and then there is an additional optional analog input module which I had on my amp which carries the balanced set and 2 further sets of single ended inputs so giving me 5 analog inputs in total.
All of the single ended should be the same but you never know.

But again thank you as at least I have something to work off right now and the start of a plan that now does not include wasting money but hopefully getting it right first time.

I tried.

@invictus005,

I saw your post on searching for the Holy Grail phono stage and your belief that most are terrible and that 6922s are bright and tube-based phono stages have mushy bass.   Not saying your experiences are wrong as many tube-based components can tend to have mushy bass.  I have not had upgraditis for over a decade. That said, I just got a new phono stage (it is being shipped next week).

i will keeep you posted but I upgraded to an Aesthetix IO Eclipse with dual power supplies. I upgraded because my former IO Signature went down (after a decade with no issues). I can say unequivocally that my former IO Signature had fabulous dynamic non-mushy bass and, although only 2 of its 24 tubes were 6922s, the IO was not “bright ” at all.

I’m excited to get the Eclipse with the second power supply - although it takes up serious rack space with three chassis and weighing over 130 pounds which makes it not for everyone.  The new phono stage now has 30 tubes so it is probably not the first thought for people just getting into a tubed phono stage - but I’ll keep you posted on whether it approaches Holy Grail status for me.

For reference, I’ll be running it with an SME 30 and SME V tonearm with a Dynavector DRT XV-1s into the Eclipse into a Conrad-Johnson ART III into Lamm M1.1 Ref monos driving Rockport Aquila’s.

Another option that I considered when I was using my first 2170 but never tried... 

Using a phono preamp that has a built-in ADC like the PS Audio NuWave Phono Converter or the McIntosh MP100.

Instead of having the Lyngdorf doing the ADC from it's own analog inputs, you would run digital out of the two phono amps mentioned above, using their ADCs that are meant solely for a phono analog signal straight into the Lyngdorf's optical/coax inputs, which sound best in my experience.

I have previously used the PS Audio NuWave for about six months, and used it's analog out most of the time which I thought was phenomenal, but was also impressed using it's coax and I2s output into a Wyred4Sound DAC2se.

Just food for thought...or at least an experiment.