Jazz for aficionados

Schubert's logic is impeccable on that one.

This is supposed to be a music thread(conversation). Jazz in particular. And since none of you, save Learsfool, have the slightest clue about the subject of which you speak, get back to music or go back to your 'Audiophile' hangouts. Don't you have some wire to discuss?? Perhaps the latest cable lifters? Are you sure you have covered ALL tubes?

To clear the air of hate and genocide:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-37y9GhAA0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSTzSEiZ2c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en6kmiX0SDc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4ZyCPhVvvM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08CqZaP0EuA

Cheers

Rod2kid thanks for the music!!!

Schubert, I must protest that you go a little too far in your latest posts. Wagner never carried his anti-Semitism nearly so far as Hitler and the Nazis did. And yes, Hitler DID use Wagner's music at both his public rallies, and in the death camps (both well documented), thereby giving Wagner's anti-Semitism an even more horrific, exaggerated spin. Wagner would have been horrified by their death camps. This is of course NOT to justify or excuse or diminish Wagner's terribly racist views, but merely to say they did not go so far as the Nazis - he did not advocate actually killing/exterminating the Jews, even though he wished they didn't exist - those two things are NOT the same; Wagner never killed anyone, and his music certainly hasn't either.

Much of the anti-Semitism of Bayreuth over the years came actually from Cosima, after Richard's death, whose views were more extreme than her husband's; if you have read her diaries (which were only published in the 1980s), this is made quite clear. And it was a couple of their grandchildren who were cozy with the Nazis, against the wishes of some of the rest of the family, who were appalled, and distanced themselves, though they did not go public. There is an interesting book on the subject by one of his great grandsons, Siegfried, who has been ostracized from Bayreuth for finally bringing out in public some of the embarrassing Nazi associations of his family - at least as of a couple of years ago he is still an outsider. Unlike his successors, Wagner himself had no problem hiring Jews who were the best musicians, including Franz Strauss, the greatest horn player of his day (and father of the composer Richard Strauss). He premiered quite a few of Wagner's operas, in Munich and at Bayreuth. A Jewish conductor, Hermann Levi, premiered Parsifal at Bayreuth. Wagner did not like the fact these musicians were Jewish, but it did not prevent his artistic judgment from prevailing (despite his earlier views expressed in his bizarre pamphlet about the supposed reasons Jews could never be top rank artists).

I won't argue with your statement that it is more important to be a good man than a good artist - but that is not really the issue here. No one is arguing that Wagner was not a horrible person, and no one is trying to justify his racist views. I certainly hope you were not referring to me - I prefer to assume you were not, since I would find that highly offensive, having as I said lost many distant cousins in those Nazi death camps. Again, I believe one must separate the art from the man. And there are a great many Jews and artists who agree - Daniel Barenboim has done much great work uniting young Israeli and Palestinian musicians, in part with the music of Wagner! Controversial, yes. Effective, unquestionably. Music should heal; it should not foster more hatred.

Allow me to frame the argument in another way - should the world completely disregard one of its greatest artistic geniuses because he had some appalling personal views? Are you seriously advocating this? Are you not in fact therefore advocating censorship? Where does this line of thought stop? Is this type of reasoning any different from say someone who decides they don't want to hear Tchaikovsky, or Schubert, for that matter, because they liked young teenage boys? Or to hear Bruckner since he was supposedly a necrophiliac? Should we not listen to Gesualdo since he was a murderer? Should we not listen to Miles Davis because he used drugs? We could continue this indefinitely to complete absurdity; but to not listen to Wagner's music because he was racist does not make any more logical sense to me than any of these other examples.

Nice post Learsfool.

I like to think of music as both an educational and healing force. Personally, I don't think enjoyment of an artists music is equivalent to liking them as a person. But liking them as a person is no doubt a plus.

My reaction in this case is to want to listen to more Wagner in probably a futile effort to try to understand the person better through his music, for better or for worse.