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What is more accurate: magnetic anti-skating, or barrel weight attached a fishline?

I have seen turntables from Project, Music Hall, and a few other brands that still incorporate a small barrel weight attached to short fishline string which is stretched across a hooking loop to set ANTI-SKATING. It seems to be an artifact from the 1960's and 1970's tonearm design. It is also easy to lose or break 

My question is how accurate is that "device" compared to magnetic anti-skating employed by many turntable manufacturers   Thank you

sunnyjim
thom_at_galibier_design's avatar
thom_at_galibier_design
723 posts
 
Lewm said:

Ralph, I am saying that when the cantilever/stylus is tangent to the groove, the friction force generated by the stylus to groove resistance has a vector directed tangent to the groove, too.  But because the headshell is offset with respect to a straight line drawn from the cantilever to the pivot, there will still be a skating force due entirely to the headshell offset angle.  Interestingly, if you use an "underhung" tonearm (no off color pun intended) with zero headshell offset, then there can be only one null point on the surface of the LP with respect to tracking angle error, but at that one null point, skating force will also be zero, because the forces will line up with the pivot.

Tangency (null points) is not enough to eliminate skating force.  Lew says it quite well, but maybe it needs to be said a different way as well.

Skating force is the vector sum of the forces of the record "dragging the stylus in a generally forward direction".  Forces sum and  cancel each other.

The amount of drag and its direction is a function of groove friction and geometry.  The friction part is what makes it tricky, because this in turn, is a function of record velocity (changes across the record), the dynamics of the musical passage (varying resistance to larger "wiggles" in the groove), the condition of the vinyl, the shape and polish of the stylus, and ... I'm probably forgetting something, but you get the picture.

Here's a visualization that might help (and spare you the vector math):

  • Hold your left arm out in front of you (horizontally) with your palm facing toward the right.
  • Bend your wrist so your fingers point further to the right, so it resembles the headshell/cartridge offset.
  • Have someone tug on your fingertip in a direction parallel to your bent hand.
This is our null point case.  Your hand will move to the right (skating force).

So, even at the null point, there's some skating force.

As Raul and others have correctly stated, there is no single correct anti-skate setting for your rig because of the frictional factors I mentioned in the third paragraph.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier  Design
thom_at_galibier_design's avatar
thom_at_galibier_design
723 posts
 
Hi Stringreen,

Actually, lever based (gravity) anti-skate systems vary the force across the record due to the angular change of the weight (it's distance from the fulcrum relative to the downward force of gravity).  Designs with thread (string) like the Tri-Planar can be adjusted  somewhat to change the point at which the force engages, and sufficiently for the vaguaries of the unpredictable skating environment (is it hockey season yet?).

Given the unpredictability of skating forces, you can't really do better than this.  IOW, a perfect solution for a situation which can't predicted will ultimately be no better.  I don't want to speak on behalf of VPI, but I think this has been their philosophy all along.

Somewhat related to this ... some anti-skate designs can help stabilize a unipivot tonearm to a certain extent.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
sunnyjim OP
927 posts
 
To Stringreen.   Thank you for heads up about the recording of Kuijken's  performance of Vivaldi's "Four Seasons"  I will have to check around possibly on Amazon and Discogs for the recording. I will assume if was an LP recording, not a CD. 
nandric's avatar
nandric
4,086 posts
 

Dear chakster,  I used Van den Hul D 501 and Silver Cable with

Lustre (then) and with FR-64 s (silver version) at present. If you

are not familiar with ''Silver Cable'' consult Don (Griffiths).

ct0517's avatar
ct0517
2,041 posts
 
Here's a visualization that might help (and spare you the vector math):

Hold your left arm out in front of you (horizontally) with your palm facing toward the right.
• Bend your wrist so your fingers point further to the right, so it resembles the headshell/cartridge offset.
• Have someone tug on your fingertip in a direction parallel to your bent hand.
This is our null point case. Your hand will move to the right (skating force).

So, even at the null point, there's some skating force.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design

This is much safer than the elastic band method wrapped around the cartridge body I mentioned earlier ........:^)

Atmasphere
At any rate, I've yet to find any LP that can cause distortion or mistracking of the cartridge at any point, so it must be all good, right?


IMO it is all good with vinyl. Here is my take on it and with a personal example.
Firstly imo vinyl play produces good distortions. Meaning distortions we like.

I have had this Technics sl1200 lying around for a long time and for the last 20+ years was used for the purposes of loaning out. First to work friends and then these same friends kids. It went out 5 or 6 times during this time period. I got it back about a year ago and finally sold it to a 21 year old lady recently. Anyway....Set up it with a basic Grado black it sounded good; everyone was happy with it. They would use it and then decide if they were going to get a deck, or if it was not for them just return it.
Now up against better tables/tonearms, in the same room and gear (including cartridge) the sound differences were very clear and the "distortions" very evident. Here the linear tracker reveals a very different soundstage, and it plays clean on the last songs of records .....very often the best songs ! But until you hear this in your own room to make a direct comparison - you don't know.
The key being same room/gear. Different tables different rooms - can't be done. The room is the big factor. That sl1200 table on its own, set up well sounds just fine. I realize now that the $350 I sold it for with cartridge was a mistake. Should have kept it to spread the vinyl virus at the cottage. But somewhere there is a happy lady spinning tunes.

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