are subwoofers anti-audiophile?

I think that almost all music systems benefit from stereo subs IF they are integrated properly. This is due to several factors imho. First they generate air movement which is not necessarily generated even by full range speakers. Second " full range " speakers get there by either using multiple mid sized drivers ( which definately won't move much air and will roll off quickly below their limit denying you any real low frequency support) or they use a large driver which will have more difficulty integrating with the midrange and is in any event not designed purely as a low bass unit and will not be as a good as a well designed sub which needs do nothing else. As others have noted 2 subs properly set up will not be noticed except by their absence even with pure acoustic jazz. When you turn off my subs during the Duke Ellington/Louis Armstrong sessions the sound stage shrinks and the acoustic bass doen't sound as real. Sound stage is a very overlooked component to these very low fundamental frequencies. JMHO - Jim

over the years, I too have found complications, mostly with Panel/electrostats and subs, but with cone speakers, integration was fairly simple.

Zydo, I agree with you 110% here: "A good sub, set up the right way, should not even be noticed.....untill you turn it off. People don't even know I have a sub on most of the time. I'm not a "bass freak" by any means, but when I listen, if I turn the sub off, the room seems to get hollow"----your observation of "hollow" is spot on.

I am glad to hear others have noted this as well and also agree with Byroncunningham that perhaps it is an old prejudice to the times where most available subs were junk.

I have a small room, but still like a full bass response, so a sub works great. Any speaker that gives the full range sound I prefer on its own would overload the room. So, I can go with a standmounter or small floorstander and then add a high quality sub to come up underneath them and fill in what's missing. The sub then can be dialed in so that the room isn't overloaded and I get the sound I want. Like others, I've been able to accomplish this in a way that the sub doesn't stand out at all. There are a lot of great subs available now compared to years ago.

Here is why I decided to loose the sub I had in my system. I found I lost both midrange and highs causing my system to sound less intmate and natural are more impressive for a short listen.

Every time I turned off the sub I immediately hated the loss of bass impact and quickly turned it back on.

Well I recently decided to let my ears endure a longer time period with the sub off and my music collection came to life with better imaging and much more midrange and highs detail.

The music was more involving and less impressive.

My sub was carefully set up to only play 40 htz and below. The volume was set very, very low as to not make the use of it apparent

I found that a sub will/can rob some life and transparancy from my system. I owned an SVS PB12 Plus 2.

This is my recent experience with a sub.

My main speakers are Silverline Bolero rated down to the mid 30's.

I believe there are many listeners that prefer an excess of bass. I like to indulge at times myself. However, when I listen to the Phoenix Symphony live, or jazz concerts at the center for the arts I do not hear/feel that excess bass subwoofers provide. Perhaps, the subwoofer user wants to show off how much thump he has and the levels are set too high.

In a small room, there is definitely a placement advantage versus full range speakers. My secondary system utilizes a separate woofer. I would not label it as a subwoofer since response is into the thirties not the teens or twenties.

Certain recordings and music are deliberately made for an enhanced bottom end, and the true subwoofer can make the experience more satisfying. This may also be true for comparison to a live rock concert which I don't attend. I've used several different subs in my main system and usually find I prefer the sound without the sub turned on. I have since sold the last one and don't miss it at all.