Innersound Speakers

the defendant replies:

i walked into the room and requested an audition of a cd.

within 30 seconds i heard cymbal, kick drum , acoustic bass and electric guitar. i heard the difference between cone and panel. it doesn't take long. my mode of audition in general, even in my own system is short listening of familiar music.

i commented on what i heard and roger suggested that i listen to a cd of willie nelson. i listened and i again heard the lower register coming from the cone and some of the higher notes coming from the panel and i heard the difference between the two. to my ears , the integration was not seamless.

i am looking for a speaker now. what reason would i have to come into a room, if i assumed i would hear a difference, before i actually heard it ? i wouldn't have listened if i already decided that hybrids were of no interest to me.

trelja, would you be willing to make a wager, if i were blindfolded, to test my hearing, if you believe i didn't detect the difference between cone and panel ?

i then discussed with him my interest in a full range electrostatic speaker and specified that i don't listen loud, no more than 85 db and wanted to achieve bass reponse extending to the about 35 khz. he replied that he would have to double the width of the panel, double the height and include a dsp. we discussed the affect of including the dsp in the signal path upon the performance of the speaker and i expressed my concern that it would add distortion and he asserted that i wouldn't hear the dsp even though it was in the signal path. i was not convinced, nor did i want to take a chance for $10,000 to have him build it, without obviously listening to it.

trelja, you are partially correct and partially incorrect about the facts of the situation.

at issue is my ability to detect discontinuity in cone or pnale within less than one minute and/or needing more time to give the speaker a chance to play a variety of music, before making a judgment.

having heard many examples of hybrid speakers, i believe i am experienced enough to observe in a very short period of time.

i will also admit to a certain point of view having heard a variety of hybrids, including electrostatic tweeter and bass/midrange cone, heil tweeter and cone, ribbon and cone and planar magnetic and cone.

i am not prone to falsify what i hear. there is no reason for me to do this.

the panel on the innnersound speaker is fine. i enjoy listening to it. i would like to hear a full range version of it without having to pay for it in advance.

I've owned EROS MKIIIs for about 3-4 years. I don't mind the small sweet spot, most speakers have one and I don't find off axis that bad. I listen to music by myself 95%+ of the time so it's not really an issue.

I'm lucky, I don't hear a discontinuity between the woofer and the panel. I would be surprised if Roger could build a speaker twice as wide and tall with DSP for 10K. But, you probably still wouldn't have any deep bass, IMHO.

You're going to have to go the SoundLab route and it WILL cost you in excees of 10K not counting the amplification, maybe even used. For your acuity, you have narrowed it down to one brand and a lot of money. FWIW, I've heard most of the hybrid designs over the last 40 years.

I think this forum is very lucky to have two people experience the Sanders speakers and post differing opinions about the same event. Wish I could have been there.

Clearly, I have my version of what happened, and you have yours, "trelja, you are partially correct and partially incorrect about the facts of the situation."

"within 30 seconds i heard cymbal, kick drum , acoustic bass and electric guitar. i heard the difference between cone and panel. it doesn't take long. my mode of audition in general, even in my own system is short listening of familiar music."

As stated above, my recollection is that it was 1 second, not 30, which I laid out in my feelings regarding your prejudice.

"i am looking for a speaker now. what reason would i have to come into a room, if i assumed i would hear a difference, before i actually heard it ? i wouldn't have listened if i already decided that hybrids were of no interest to me."

Again, prejudice. I believe your goal was not to listen to the product Roger believes in, but to have someone who has demonstrated the mastery of electrostatic loudspeaker buildingsince the 1960s make you something you feel is better than what he builds - see my comments on teaching the teacher.

"trelja, would you be willing to make a wager, if i were blindfolded, to test my hearing, if you believe i didn't detect the difference between cone and panel ?"

See my comments on whether or not you are able to hear the difference. But, to answer your question more directly, even if I felt you could not, my first rule in life is that when you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

"i then discussed with him my interest in a full range electrostatic speaker and specified that i don't listen loud, no more than 85 db and wanted to achieve bass reponse extending to the about 35 khz. he replied that he would have to double the width of the panel, double the height and include a dsp. we discussed the affect of including the dsp in the signal path upon the performance of the speaker and i expressed my concern that it would add distortion and he asserted that i wouldn't hear the dsp even though it was in the signal path. i was not convinced, nor did i want to take a chance for $10,000 to have him build it, without obviously listening to it."

As I have tried to say, the man gave you what he felt is an accurate assessment of the situation in terms of how to give you what you are asking of him - in the most professional and generous manner, I may add. And, again, via you not accepting that, you feel you feel you know more than he does.

You are also incorrect in that is NOT what happened next, as you left out what ensued previous to that which was what I described in my recount of Roger asking you about what your three requirements were. You continue to leave it out, as you need to include how much power you will provide via your amplification. I go back to your inability to answer his question.

As for you not wanting to take a chance for $10K, would you expect someone to go against everything they believe in to produce a one off component for someone who walks into your room and flat out tells you that your life work is invalid in their estimation, that they know how to do what you do better than you even if they have never done it before, and they can have you build a product for them that surpasses what you have spent 40 years working towards even if you disagree with it without having them pay for your efforts? Considering that he sells the loudspeakers that he puts his own name on for $13K, I'd say he offered you the most generous terms imaginable. You expect not to have to compensate him should you somehow decide that what you designed didn't end up as superior as you figured it would be?

"the panel on the innnersound speaker is fine. i enjoy listening to it. i would like to hear a full range version of it without having to pay for it in advance."

It sounds like you should get to work on building yourself a pair.

he trelja:

you are entitled to your opinion as to what occurred during my visit to the st tropez to listen to roger sanders latest creation.

we have disagreements as to what happened. however i question some of your hypotheses.

you have no evidence of any prejudice. i did not go into the room expecting someone to suggest the feasibility of building another speaker to satisfy my objectives. you have no way of knowing what is going on in my mind. however, in fairness to you, you said "believe". i strongly disagree with your beliefs. however, you are entitled to them.

by the way, why have you chosen to act as roger sander's defender/lawyer ? i'm sure he is speaking for himself.

my not accepting his proposal has nothing to do with knowledge--his or mine. i never claimed to have any knowledge. i just objected to paying for a speaker in the amount of $10,000, without auditioning it first.
by the way, i don't recall being asked about the amplifier i would be using to power a speaker. i would have provided that information. i own several tube amps. i aam aware of the capabilities of each. why would i refuse to answer such a quuestion ? it makes no sense?

either he did not answer the question, which is likely , or i answered it and you did not hear the answer.

i did not invalidate roger's creation. i said i can hear two drivers, cone and panel. i did not indicate any expertise at speaker building. you have misrepresented what i said and did not say.

i would not expect someone to build a speaker without paying for it, which is why i declined his proposal, because it wasn't a production speaker which i could audition prior to purchase.

the fact that i expressed a preference for a full range electrostatic speaker did not automatically imply that he he had to offer to build one. our conversation could have focused on his hybrid speaker. i did not ask him to build a speaker.

you also left out our brief discussion of the quad 57s.

by the way, it sounds like you are not convinced that i did not hear the difference between panel and cone. your allusions to dogs and fleas does not negate what i heard.

finally, martin logan will be producing a full range electrostatic speaker, then clx, later this year, and i am considering stacked quads unlimited quad 57s.

Since I made an on-topic comment, here is an off-topic comment.

In response to one very minor issue above, the dsp, it seems that graphic equalizers are coming back. The way to do it, however, is not necessarily associated with the speaker, but in your DAC. There are people who are really into that aspect that could explain more, but basically there is a new device, a sort of digital preamp/dac/digital graphic equilizer. These are very sophisticated and come with usb to your computer and you use your computer to equalize it and there are 200+ pg instruction manuals as to how to measure and adjust it for just your room. Apparently, if you get one of these and pay a lot lot of money for it, the eq doesn't hurt the sound.

Not my piece of cake, I've got a tube pre that I love, but in these increasingly digital days, I can see it as a valid path to good sound quality.

Note that a Von Schweikert dealer I spoke to in regard to room adjustments (the larger VSs can be adjusted for the room) actually said he preferred people not be able to do that. He said he spends hours and hours setting them up properly, and then a year later goes back and invariably they are worse. If not the purchasers, often their kids, get in there and muck with all the settings and in both cases don't know what they are doing. Anyway, just an idea that if we buy speakers for the 'average' home then overall better sound might be had than people mucking around changing everything. Just an idea - as for me - I love mucking with things!