Innersound Speakers


Anyone heard how these sound off axis. I know that they loose something, but so does every speaker.

Ken
drken
Mine are for sale for same reason too much head in the vise, but when you are in that very small space they can really thrill. I went with VMPS for Hybrid with Dynamic woofers and Planar mids and Riboon tweets feeling like I had the speed and detail of Innersound but better bass and real world sweetspot, some dont have issue with sweetspot so you really need to try before you buy, more so with this speaker than most.
i think a bigger problem with hybrid speakers is the discontinuity or lack of coherence between cone and ribbon or electrostatic panel. time and again, when i listened to several versions of the vmps, the eros, the kaya, kachina and now roger sanders latest opus, i was bothered by the lack of integration.

i am not bothered by listening off axis.
Like anything else, one must pick their poison. Decreased off axis performance is one that Roger Sanders freely admits to. He consciously makes this design tradeoff. Every loudspeaker, or audio component, is a series of compromises, and every cognizant (as opposed to someone who does not understand what they are doing) audio designer makes the decisions he makes in the interest of producing the best product he possibly can. Roger is a refreshingly honest in his ability to provide a world of background on the topic, then cogently lay out why every decision he made along the way was done the way it was done.

I will take issue with Mrtennis' assertion above. Again, I would like to say that I was in the room during his audition of the loudspeaker at CES2008, and my own take on the situation is quite different than that which he lays forth...

My biggest problems with what Mrtennis puts forth are that he entered into the audition already convinced of what the loudspeakers did and did not do. My statement is based on what I felt was his jumping up in protest in literally less than one second into the playing of the music to complain about the poor integration of cone and electrostatic drivers he expressed in his post above. Prejudice in life results in the one who holds it being harmed in that they are unable to experience a situation for what it is. The Chinese proverb of emptying one's cup so they can taste the tea seems most apropos.

Instead of sitting back, and giving the speakers and the man the courtesy of a true audition, he then entered into a philosophical discussion with Roger, taking the tact of trying to teach the teacher, which, in my opinion, is always the very height of arrogance, combined with ignorance.

Once Roger then accepted Mrtennis' position as being what he honestly felt (which every person is entitled to - whether or not you agree with their opinion or how they arrived at it - hey, if he hears poor integration, OK), Mrtennis then began asking questions of whether this, that, and the other thing were feasible, possible, or practical.

The hypocrisy alone of this turn of events should not be lost on us, as one would not think that a rational person can go from having all the answers and being completely and totally unaccepting of the views their counterpart holds one minute, and then asking that same person along the lines of someone having no real confidence if certain things that the person clearly disagrees with can be accomplished the next. This is where the "ignorance" factor in the equation I just laid out shows itself.

To his credit as being a true professional, Roger engaged Mrtennis in this discussion, answering the questions in terms of both the objective as well as the tangible. As I laid out above, Roger understands this craft from A to Z, and that everything is a question of tradeoffs. So, in order to provide an answer to the yes/no question of can you build me a loudspeaker, he needed to ask Mrtennis to provide him with the parameters/requirements of that end product - in this case, a purely electrostatic loudspeaker.

For example, tell me how loud you want to listen and the lower limit frequency that you require. Based on that, I can tell you how much power you will need. Or, tell me how loud you listen and how much power you have, and I will tell you how low the speaker will go. In other words, provide me A and B in terms of the two things that you cannot give up, and I will give you my assurance of what C will be, all based on the laws of physics - at which point, you make a yes/no decision of me building it for you.

Mrtennis more or less refused to answer the question ala being utterly unable to provide Roger with two parameters that were most important to him, in that he was unwilling to accept any compromise of the third. He hopes for all three things to be achievable at the same time. We all know that one cannot have everything in this equation. Otherwise, how many of us would be basking in the glory our loudspeakers producing 20 Hz tones at our normal (for me, 90 - 95 dB) listening levels, driven by 2 wpc 45 SET amplification?

A few other wrinkles and tangents were a part of the discussion, but I feel I've painted enough of the picture already, and don't have to describe them here so as not to make what is already too long a post even longer.

Roger's judgement call is putting forth this design - it uses a 10 cone driver in a true TL bass alignment, driven by a 600 wpc solid state amplifier that he provides with the package - you drive the electrostatic panel above 360 Hz with the amplifier of your choosing. The one true statement that can be made is that Roger has done his best to produce the best loudspeaker he feels he can produce. If he felt he could improve upon it within the tools and technology without driving the cost beyond all sense, I can assure you, it would have already been done. Whether or not it is the right speaker for you is the question.

Personally, I feel that the speakers that Roger has put forth are one of the finest products available on the market, sonically. Do I hear poor driver integration in this product? Honestly, I do not. Am I sensitive to it in other products, and feel it is a topic worthy of discussion? Definitely. Is Mrtennis entitled to his opinion that he hears it in this product? Absolutely. Are these loudspeakers perfect? No, of course not. No loudspeaker is or probably ever will be.

Of course, there are two sides to every story. I wanted to lend my own perspective to in the interest of adding balance to folks who may read about the driver integration here enough times that it becomes accepted as truth, as opposed to an opinion. I have no financial stake or otherwise in Roger's business or relationships, but I will say that I hold him in the highest regard as a person and loudspeaker designer/builder, and what I am proud to say - a friend. Take whatever grain of salt in my commentary you wish based on all of that.
the defendant replies:

i walked into the room and requested an audition of a cd.

within 30 seconds i heard cymbal, kick drum , acoustic bass and electric guitar. i heard the difference between cone and panel. it doesn't take long. my mode of audition in general, even in my own system is short listening of familiar music.

i commented on what i heard and roger suggested that i listen to a cd of willie nelson. i listened and i again heard the lower register coming from the cone and some of the higher notes coming from the panel and i heard the difference between the two. to my ears , the integration was not seamless.

i am looking for a speaker now. what reason would i have to come into a room, if i assumed i would hear a difference, before i actually heard it ? i wouldn't have listened if i already decided that hybrids were of no interest to me.

trelja, would you be willing to make a wager, if i were blindfolded, to test my hearing, if you believe i didn't detect the difference between cone and panel ?

i then discussed with him my interest in a full range electrostatic speaker and specified that i don't listen loud, no more than 85 db and wanted to achieve bass reponse extending to the about 35 khz. he replied that he would have to double the width of the panel, double the height and include a dsp. we discussed the affect of including the dsp in the signal path upon the performance of the speaker and i expressed my concern that it would add distortion and he asserted that i wouldn't hear the dsp even though it was in the signal path. i was not convinced, nor did i want to take a chance for $10,000 to have him build it, without obviously listening to it.

trelja, you are partially correct and partially incorrect about the facts of the situation.

at issue is my ability to detect discontinuity in cone or pnale within less than one minute and/or needing more time to give the speaker a chance to play a variety of music, before making a judgment.

having heard many examples of hybrid speakers, i believe i am experienced enough to observe in a very short period of time.

i will also admit to a certain point of view having heard a variety of hybrids, including electrostatic tweeter and bass/midrange cone, heil tweeter and cone, ribbon and cone and planar magnetic and cone.

i am not prone to falsify what i hear. there is no reason for me to do this.

the panel on the innnersound speaker is fine. i enjoy listening to it. i would like to hear a full range version of it without having to pay for it in advance.
I've owned EROS MKIIIs for about 3-4 years. I don't mind the small sweet spot, most speakers have one and I don't find off axis that bad. I listen to music by myself 95%+ of the time so it's not really an issue.

I'm lucky, I don't hear a discontinuity between the woofer and the panel. I would be surprised if Roger could build a speaker twice as wide and tall with DSP for 10K. But, you probably still wouldn't have any deep bass, IMHO.

You're going to have to go the SoundLab route and it WILL cost you in excees of 10K not counting the amplification, maybe even used. For your acuity, you have narrowed it down to one brand and a lot of money. FWIW, I've heard most of the hybrid designs over the last 40 years.

I think this forum is very lucky to have two people experience the Sanders speakers and post differing opinions about the same event. Wish I could have been there.