Your picks of mediocre or lousy vocals with great musicians!


I nominate the following:
Michael Franks
Pat Benatar
Mik Jagger
Billy Idol
and...
Michael Jackson

czarivey

Showing 6 responses by bdp24

You’re so right Marty---Yoko is as bad as it gets. Lennon really made a fool of himself by championing her. A couple of guys I find particularly distasteful are Michael McDonald and Steve Perry, though the Bands they were in (The Doobie Brothers and Journey) were comprised of musicians I don’t consider great.

No doubt about it, Neil Schon is a skilled guitarist, just not one I myself consider great. But then I feel the same about Hendrix, surely even more questionable an opinion! Great for me includes considerations of taste and style, not merely skill (technique or otherwise), and taste and style are always a matter of opinion and, again, taste. Nothing wrong with that---it's why they make ice cream in different flavors, as the old expression goes.

Tostado, I couldn't agree more about Levon's voice. Not great range, but so much character and personality! But Richard Manuel's voice quirky? Unique sure, with a whole lotta soul. He's one of Clapton's favorite Caucasian singers. Speaking of Clapton and guitarists, Eric is dissed a lot, and I don't understand why. I love his phrasing.

What makes for a great guitarist, or great musician on any instrument?

First and foremost, it’s musicality. In Pop (in the large sense of the term) music, I put the song (it’s chords, their "progression", the melody, harmony, counter-point, arrangement, etc., and lyrics) first, the singing second, the ensemble accompaniment third, and the individual musicianship last (though that collectively impacts, in fact determines, the third). IMO it is the job of every musician to serve first the song, second the singer, and the ensemble of which he is a member third. There is an old axiom amongst seasoned musicians: "Make the other players sound good". That requires selflessness and humility, somewhat of a rare trait amongst guitarists ;-).

The problem posed by "playing for the song" is.....what song?! Many Rock guitarists are the main point of interest in a recording, the songs themselves being merely the vehicle the singer and musicians require to "show their stuff", the level of songwriting quality in the music being generally so low (imo). The problem posed by "make the other players sound good" is.....to play in such a manner requires the others players to also be playing in that manner. It only works if they do.

There is a well-known case of a moment in time when one of the two biggest and most celebrated guitarists in the world (the other being Jimi Hendrix) was faced with the above quandary, and had a musical epiphany. He had just heard a music in which the musicians DID put the song first, DID put the singer second, and DID play in such a manner as to make the other musicians (AND song, AND singer) sound good. He had his entire musical rug pulled out from under him, and had to completely rethink how he made music. He was currently playing music that: 1- Had songs whose main purpose, function in fact, was to give the musicians a platform upon which to play their instruments; 2- Was being played by each musician in such a way as to make each of them individually sound good, the opposite of the axiom above. The guitarist was Eric Clapton, and the music he had just heard was that of The Band, and their new debut album, Music From Big Pink. You can listen to Eric talk about it on You Tube (Eric: "Music had been going in the wrong direction for a long time, and now someone had gone and done it right".).

The Band were the "anti-Cream", their opposite in every way. The members of Cream played as to each make himself the center of attention---each man for himself. Jack Bruce’s bass playing was often fighting for your attention against Eric Clapton’s guitar playing, not complimenting it. Ginger Baker was not laying down a deep pocket and groove in support of the music or Eric and Jack, he was over-playing to a ridiculous degree. He obviously did not subscribe to Duke Ellington’s view of musicianship: "What you don’t play is as important as what you do". Ginger left no space unfilled. The members of The Band, in contrast, played not only for the sake of the song, but left "holes" in their playing, holes to be filled by the other players. Ensemble playing of the highest order, unheard of in a self-contained Rock Group or Band. A level of musicianship only available from the best session musician’s in Muscle Shoals, Memphis, Nashville, Los Angeles, Detroit, and New York.

Now, there are a lot of assumptions in the above, and not all of them necessarily apply to Rock (or any other) music in general, or to guitarists specifically. But consider this: Don’t the "best" songwriters usually have musicians who play in the manner I have described up above? The "better" the songwriter, the more he usually wants from his players musicality, playing that enhances the song itself. When John Hiatt was given his choice of any guitarist in the world to play on his Bring The Family album, he chose, not Neal Schon, but Ry Cooder. When The Stones went in to record after the death of Brian Jones, they brought in, not Neal Schon, but.....Ry Cooder.

Yes, Ry Cooder is my idea of a great guitarist! There are others, but Neal Schon is not one of them. Again, that is just a matter of taste. I find Neal’s guitar playing very common, both numerically and pejoratively. No offense! His playing brings me back to Hendrix. I loved Jimi’s first two albums (I had yet to have the same epiphany as Clapton), and saw he and The Experience live twice. He is probably the most revered Rock guitarist of all time, yet I now don’t like his playing. Why? Beside his God-awful tone (imo!), the answer lies above: For me, it’s all about the song; everything flows from it. Many guitarists are faced with playing music in which the song itself is, as I have already claimed, a mere afterthought, at best. One such guitarist was Hendrix. C’mon, does anyone listen to him for the songs themselves? No, it’s for his guitar playing. But guitar playing is of interest to me only in how it contributes to the music (again, the song) itself, and Jimi’s songs are sure not much to write home about. If the music itself is not interesting, it’s just guitar playing. Guitar playing in isolation from music is not of interest to me. As they say, ymmv!

Marty, Johann’s day job was as a church organist, and it was his main axe ;-). He wrote a LOT of music for organ---it gave him something to play! Wasn’t the fortepiano (the predecessor of the piano) already around in J.S.’s time? I absolutely (no pun intended!) love his harpsichord works.

I realize my opinion of Hendrix’s guitar playing is an extreme minority one. I don’t think I’m "right", and don’t expect everyone, or even anyone, to agree with me. I mentioned him only in my attempt to satisfy Slaws suggestion that I define "great" in regards to musicians. In order to do so, I felt I needed to put it in the larger context of music itself. Which brought up the subject of songs. I really, really love songs, and have a very well defined and specific idea of what constitutes a real, real good one. That idea appears to differ from that of some others here, which is, of course, fine. It’s all good!

I have played with a lot of guitarists (and some bassists) who hold Jimi’s guitar playing in very high regard, and I fully realize he revolutionized the playing of the instrument. I view Jimi’s playing as I do that of Jazz musicians; It’s more about the instrument itself, and exploring it’s possibilities, than of playing a song as a song. The song itself is the framework, or skeleton, upon which the music is built. What I hunger for from music is not generally provided by that type of music. Improvisation and soloing provide one kind of musical high, I’m looking for a different kind.

In Jimi’s music, there is no harmony singing, and very little melody of any interest or substance. The chords and their progressions are bone stock, heard a million times before. Jazz music is often musicians improvising or soloing on the same chord for what seems like an eternity. Not all Jazz, no. But the chords used in Jazz are commonly "self-consciously" sophisticated, and kind of corny. I refer you to the dreadful, unintentionally hilarious Steely Dan. Such music is of absolutely no interest to me. To each his own!

Yup Marty, I do buy your point. Mozart is the master of the piano concerto and sonata. I actually prefer harpsichord to piano though, and am very grateful for the "authenticity" movement that brought back the instrument. Such sophistication and dignity!
I wasn't going to say anything (taste being just a matter of taste), but I'm right with ya tostadosunidos. I found Bowie not only reminiscent of Newley, but just as vapid an "entertainer". And contrived and calculated as well. No offense, Bowie fans.