XLR/RCA dilemma


With 5-series Ayre components, the idea of running balanced from disc player through preamp to amp is appealing, but it doesn't provide for bass management.  At the cost of interrupting that balanced link, I can add a bass manager that high-passes to a pair of KEF LS50s, a move claimed to improve their sound.  Is that likely to be a worthwhile tradeoff?

db

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Showing 4 responses by sfall

"With 5-series Ayre components, the idea of running balanced from disc player through preamp to amp is appealing, but it doesn't provide for bass management."

If you are looking to take extremely high quality, near state of the art gear, and turn it into an aspiring mid fi system, this is exactly how you do it. All I can say is that if you are looking for advice like you're getting now, just go to Best Buy. Charles is not going to get too involved and take part in an argument like this. I can't speak for him, but I'm pretty sure he's tired of getting into debates like this. If I were in your position, I would be more inclined to seek info from people that own and use the same type of gear you have.

"Personally I would retain the Ayre purity using balanced connections and finding a better way. I have an all Ayre system balanced from cartridge/CD player through amp and am very satisfied."

I agree. Bass management is for HT systems. There's a reason that no one with the level of gear you have uses it. For best results, you need to do it yourself.
You didn't do anything wrong. You asked for opinions from the Ayre community and got responses from others as well. Ayre is designed so that best results are gotten from a system that is time and phase correct. Most people think that's an issue for speakers, and it is. However, its important that the signal reaches the speakers as "untouched", as possible. That's why Ayre, starting from the source, uses balanced connections and 0 feedback all the way too, and including the amp. When you start in with xovers, phase is altered, There may be other adverse effects, but that will depend on what you are putting in the system. With most brands, you probably won't hear anything out of the ordinary, but Ayre is very detailed and sensitive to these types of distortions. I can't speak for anyone else, but anytime I've experimented with different typs of components and designs, I can clearly hear the differences.

"The problem is with what I hear below 100 Hz using the LS50s.  I'd like to remove those frequencies from their duty.  And to do that seems to require intervention between the preamp and amp."

That's why you should use full range speakers with subs. Regardless, there's a better way to do it. You may have noticed that some subs have speaker cable terminals. Use those instead. You run speaker cables from the back of the power amp to the input on the subs. This type of connection has no effect on your amp because you are using the speaker cable at IC's. No real power goes through them. If you are looking for a music solution, connecting a sub this way is prefered. For something crude like HT, it doesn't really matter. For music, if you don't get it exactly right, you won't be able to listen to it. After a few days you'll just unplug the subs and go without.

In my listening room, I have 2 Ayre V-5's and 2 subs connected in the above manner. I wouldn't tell you to do anything that I wouldn't do in my own system. I would ask, though, that you not take my word for this. Call Ayre and ask him if this setup is a better option. That way you have the piece of mind that comes from Ayres approval, and not go by what some stranger on the internet told you to do.
"I've pretty much decided to follow Charles Hansen's recommendation to stay out of the Ayre balanced link.  I'll fully bung the LS50s, and use the Bryston 10B only to send 100 Hz and below to the subs."

Sorry if you didn't understand my post, but my comments went beyond balancing. I looked at my post again, and I definately wasn't clear. Balancing is only one problem. What I should have also included was that given what your current system is, and your current solution for a sub, won't work. You can get sound out of it, but it will never integrate properly. There's just too many things working against it. Your electronics are capable of a tremendous amount of deail and speed. I don't really care for the LS50 myself, but they are detailed and fast also. Unless you don't care about the quality of bass you're getting, there's just no way the sub is going to be able to keep up with the rest of the system. The Bass will almost certainly be detached, boomy and definately, very slow. There's just too big a gap.

The only people integrating a sub into a system like yours, are using a 2 of them, and are specificly made for stereo only, and have first order xovers. And you would wire them up using the speaker cable method I touched on in my last post. And even given all that, its not easy. You may think you have it, but it won't last. It will annoy the hell out of you, and you'll end up disconnecting it. 

This is Bobs statement from above.

"db, I assume your subs have low pass filters, so I don't see the point of using the 10B at all. Or I'm not understanding how you plan on connecting things."

On that, I have to agree. The sub should have whatever you need built into it. The Bryston xover is really meant for an all Bryston system, or matched with components that sound similar. Ayre and Bryston are completely different sounding.

"My understanding is that a ported cabinet has a 4th order roll off in the bass. That appears to be the case looking at Fig 3 of Stereophile's measurements. Sealed cabinets have a 2nd order roll off. So the roll off is slower, but will start sooner. Assuming that's true, then even though the woofer is distorting the level is being attenuated earlier. I think the net effect is that the distorted sound will be at a lower level. Since the LS50's woofer starts distorting so early, attenuating its output earlier seems like a good idea."

Normally I don't agree with Bob, but he's right on this too. If you read between the lines, you'll see were both saying that there will be some big compromises made here. We're taking a different path, but we end up in the same place.

"Will this yield as clean a system as high passing the LS50? I don't see how, but I can understand that signal purists would be happier."

On this, its not about making me, or anyone else happy, with the exception of the OP. I understand why you would use the term "signal purist". Its not the worst way to put it, but I would say its a general compatability issue, along the lines of what we've been talking about. The way I personally woud describe it, is that the sub, and its related products, are undoing some of what the Ayre has done.

Maybe you have a friend that can lend you some gear to try before you commit to an expensive purchase.  

"Not sure I buy the speed issue with the sub.  My post doc work was in binaural processing.  Wavelengths at 100 Hz are long, and detection of phase is generally a complex issue and I haven't followed the psychoacoustic literature for decades.  But I think I understand your point about using speaker leads to subs, if you have to have subs."

Unfortunately, my post doc work wasn't done in binaural processing. I couldn't even go because I was busy making huge, expensive mistakes in audio.

As far as the speed and matching issue goes, you just have to try it. One of the more difficult things about this hobby is that we sometimes respond to different aspects of a system. Success usually comes to those who are willing to get their hands dirty. All that means is that you compliment the learned portion of audio with experimentation and experinace. Hopefull, you'll have something that sounds good in the end.

Also, I have to admitt that I haven't been myself these last couple of weeks. Its an issue that's not audio related. Not long ago, I had some free time and I happened to stumble across the flat earth movement. Personally, I find it to be the most disturbing thing I've seen in my entire life. And I don't scare easily. These flat earther's make an audiophile with a handfull of expensive cables appear sane. Sorry to go off topic.