I would like to assume that once one can afford the really good stuff they then have no time to listen to it. Or they have so much money combined with "upgrade fever" that they are quick to move on. Buyer beware,..in all cases. I yet believe there are some real deals out there. As for me, I buy it to enjoy it. And only hope too get in as much time as possible to listen.
I have lots of experience on this site and my experience is, for the most part, it's true.
Now this is just idle speculation, but my sense is that those that can afford luxury goods are working long hours to do so and hence have less time to spend using them. Doctors, lawyers, accountants. Kids, the sandwich generation, other hobbies, they all comes into play.
My sense is that most of these folks are more educated, even if I am not, so they probably don't smoke, or cook meth in their listening rooms.
Then again, the buyer here is more sophisticated, as well - except myself, as we have already learned - and so I think that most of the high mileage gear gets funneled to e-bay, or dealer trade ins, or even Craigslist.
That only matters if the price isnt in line with typical used gear. If its half its new price who cares? If however they sell for 80% or so of new price then I would be worried. Whats light use anyway? Its all in how one thinks its defined, some think 2hrs daily is light use, some would say 2hrs weekly is light, others 2hrs monthly so its just hard to define anyway.
All my gear is also gluten free and casein free.
With little to no exposition to muscle relaxants and long coat chihuahuas.
My grandmother only listened to it on sunday mornings before church.
Anything I sell has been left on mostly 24/7 for YEARS..
Used every day too.
Only after i upgrade and the old item sits for awhile and i just realize I am not gonna use it anymore do i sell it.
So I guess I am an exception to the op comments.
I would say that sort of comment could very well be true.
Many folks only use the system once a week, and upgrade so often it really is just like new.
It is one of those things which actually makes no difference, except maybe Cd players or DVD machines
And the number ONE iteme with fantasy time used: Cartridges.
Now for carts believing the seller depends on the seller.
Plenty of folks buy a cart to try, do not like it, and sell them. They may keep it for awhile first, but then realize they just do not want it.
Then those few who decide to lie, and think 'who can tell?' Well?
I like to purchase cables "with very light use" because they have much longer life expectancy before they wear out. I hate it when cables wear out, especially in the middle of a song!
I still have equipment that was my fathers from the 1960s. Tube phono, tube stereo, speakers etc. All in working order never repaired. Only used on weekends and special occasions.
Electronic equipment for the most part does not break or go bad. The quality is actually quite good with a very high percentage of gear. It is the owners of the equipment that are not satisfied and are always looking to replace what they have. Hence, the high turnover, which is why we have this site to ponder such things.
Until I found out about AudiogoN I never considered replacing my equipment with the frequency that I have done in the past three years. I am sure many of you were the same way before it became commonplace to buy and sell at will.
Your post is very true.
I have to agree with Viridian that most are true. I have a fair amount of transactions and most all went very well with items as described. I will share this with you that the best items I have received have this somewhere in their ad- "You will not be dissapointed".
Liz, I know it's hard to believe but there are cartridges out there for sale that do in fact have low to no hours on them. I bought a new Shelter 5000 once and it only took 1-2 hours before I realized that this was not a good match for my VPI tone arm. Someone got a real good deal. I also have purchased used cartridges with under 100 advertised hours on them. They looked brand new.
Well, my system is always lightly used because I never put too much pressure on any knobs or buttons on any of the components when I press or turn them, nor do I poke my finger in any speaker drivers and put dings in them. Lest I forget to mention, I always wear white gloves when handling audio gear.... so they always look "New in Box" or in "Mint" condition....:-):-):-)
It may surprise you that most 'audiophiles' never do listen to their equipment. They acquire it for 'eye candy' status, and it leaves them feeling superior. So, when they get tired of looking at it, up it goes on Audiogon. Sad.
Man. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you put one line descriptions on your ads someone will start a thread griping about it. If you use some more descriptions someone will gripe about it in a thread...
For me I've put some of the terms the OP has mentioned in my classified ads because 1) its true for the items I've sold, 2) I'm trying to not lose too much money from re-selling the item 3) I'm trying to be descriptive in my ads so I can get a sale. I realize when re-selling electronics be prepared to lose money but if I'm not as descriptive or truthful a sale won't happen or the insane low-balling occurs.
The posts I don't understand are the ones that say "New, in box"...huh?
"I will share this with you that the best items I have received have this somewhere in their ad- "You will not be dissapointed"."
Thanks for the tip Mark, valuable info for buyers and sellers! I think another reason might be the fact that some components really don't work well in a given system, not that the product is bad but it just doesn't pan out for what ever reason. Often the owner may keep it around for a while with little use before finally deciding to sell. I myself have done that and it seems there may be hoarders among us that maybe want to clean out the closet especially in a depressed economy.
Huh especially used phono cartridges. Without going into deep details, multiply low-hundreds of hours by 10 to get the actuals.
I only buy new or retip contenders.
Audiopiles usually don't keep things long enough to use much.
I guess as they say "you don't have to eat the whole egg to know it is rotten"
sell it and move on...
So far I kept Totem Forest speakers over 10 years.
Can't say anything about light use though.
I tend to believe most on this site keep their gear in good shape and these represent fair values used for the most part.
Of course always exceptions.
And sure, sellers always look to put the best spin on a product no matter what or where. Exaggeration is a fact of life, especially when there will be no evidence to the contrary.
Best to deal with those with a good reputation and history of being accurate and reliable whenever possible. I always ask lots of questions before buying used to help gauge. It has worked out pretty well. I have probably participated in a couple of dozen audio related transactions between here and ebay over the last 5 years or so. Only one bad experience on ebay, involving a deadbeat buyer, though that one was a couple of years back and helped tame my enthusiasm for ebay.
I'm sort of an audio hoarder. I have stuff sitting in the closet for years. Stuff like cartridges, amps, preamps. Even some of it in sealed (NOS) boxes. Some of it does only have a couple of hours, from trying it out. A lot of NOS spare tubes. The stuff I use every day is another story. High hours that are unmeasured. There are ads I've seen where the people must not be audio people. Auction resellers I'm guessing. The description they use just doesn't fit. Those ads make me curious at times. Ads for CD players that say low hours, but a tired (dim) fluorescent display says a lot there. The stuff here looks a lot better at times, than some Fleabay ads. Use your better judgment.
The ads with the high prices that just sit there are another one I can't figure out. I thought they want to sell something, but they won't adjust their prices into reality.
I have seen some beautiful, immaculate amps that I would like to have, esp the Japanese ones with the big meters, but when you click on 'research this item' they are sometimes as much as 25 years old. What are the major considerations in evaluating old equipment and what is considered a good price vs the original MSRP.
"The ads with the high prices that just sit there are another one I can't figure out. I thought they want to sell something, but they won't adjust their prices into reality."
In that case they are clearly fishing for suckers. They want to sell but only if it translates to a big payday and are willing to wait.
"What are the major considerations in evaluating old equipment and what is considered a good price vs the original MSRP."
The same as any other except issues are more likely with older gear so assume that by default until you are able to disprove. Not a bad rule in general.....
Original msrps from years ago are not really that meaningful for determining current value I would say. You have to look at current market prices and establish the true condition of the gear in question, again probably always a best practice regardless when buying.
Thanks for your answer. I was thinking of the Onkyo M-510 for sale on this site. It's so beautiful, that being operational, is almost incidental. hahhahaha
Can't guarantee audiogon blue book would have much on that model in that many rarer models do not have a lot of data, but for the monthly fee it is generally a good investment. Audiogon blue book is worth having whenever seriously considering buying used expensive gear.
I'm not familiar with that specific Onkyo but Onkyo has made some beauties that also perform quite well over teh years.
Whow what a wonderful world .Only 50% is true.
Don't forget all the refurbished 20 year old stuff like adcom amps.
It seems to be a law of the universe that all tubes have 200 hours on them.
And of course everything for sale is the best the seller has ever heard. One can only assume they prefer to keep the 2nd best they've ever heard. Dr Phil where are you....
You people are tap dancing around the word 'dishonest'
These mega-buck speakers were played lightly, ONLY with the BEST ancillary equipment, what a laugh.
They have a memory for the next buyer, BEWARE.
I realize there's a lot of skepticism about the "low hour" claim by many sellers. Much of it deserved.
However, IME there are many audiophiles who are constantly turning over equipment in search of the holy grail.
If you can identify these folks, there's a high probability what you are buying is truly very lightly used.
The key is to look at a buyer's/seller's feedback and have a real time conversation with the other party before committing to ANYTHING. I have purchased both excellent, accurately represented equipment here and also mediocre that barely scraped past honest description. When selling the key is to underrate just a bit so as to exceed expectations so that buyer has that AHH experience and provides A+++ feedback.
Couple thoughts. I have benefited from others impatience in allowing time for burn in. In such a case, I surmise that the seller concluded it is not what they are looking for after few hours, when in fact, they obviously needed to put some more hours on it.
Another thought is that some people are subject to impulse buying, or perhaps are just dealing with poor synergy with other pieces.
I have found little reason to question the veracity of most of the listings on this site. The trust that enables us to sell our used gear on this site is essential for most of us to be able to continue in this hobby. Its not worth picking up a few extra bucks on a sale.
BTW, I have a lightly used 12 yr old pair of Maggies for sale, fully broken in, but just barely. Not only do they sound great, but they also make outstanding sleds. Just a few nicks here and there from hitting a tree. Almost impossible to see the damage from 500'. At price, I'll through in a NOS 1962 Mullard GZ34 that I bought from E-Bay. Tests good, sounds like crap.
"Light use" is one of the Audiogon descriptors for classifying your equipment during the posting an ad process. It is part of the "9" rating. Maybe there should be away to differentiate perfect in appearance, that does not suggest the piece was hardly used.
Actually, my concerns have more to do with careless owners with recent gear than carefull owners with older equipment.
I dont mind if an amp has a lot of mileage on it. I'll take this any day over a newer unit that has been moved around and nicked to death.
I once purchased a "very slightly used" 9/10 pair of AKG headphones. Arrived in a shape suggesting they had been abused, permanent rubbing marks and all. This product had gone to hell and back and was a 6/10 at best.
Unfortunately, Audiogon never let me post negative feedback...
"I once purchased a "very slightly used" 9/10 pair of AKG headphones. Arrived in a shape suggesting they had been abused, permanent rubbing marks and all. This product had gone to hell and back and was a 6/10 at best.
Unfortunately, Audiogon never let me post negative feedback..."
Could you please eleborate on this. I never tried to post negative feedback but it would seem to me that if the item was not in advertised condition you should have been able to return it to the seller for a refund or that would constitute grounds for negative feedback?
After much discussion and haggling, I was finally able to return the product. Still, this proved to be an unbelievable waste of time not to mention the frustration of having to fight for some respect here.
This does not take away from the fact that this seller presented his product wrongfully in the first place. After numerous times I gave up trying to post a negative review as my attemps were in vain. Definitely made me question the objectivity of the whole feedback process.
Sonicbeauty, a "negative review" and "negative feedback" are two different things. Which one were you denied?
What do you guys think about the line that goes like this:
" I just took them out of the box to take these photographs."
Tpreaves, Sonicbeauty stated "feedback" on 12/21 regarding any submitted negative feedback must be *agreed to* by the other party, or nothing gets posted within the current feedback system. Why would anyone agree if they have a choice, hence the ridiculous system, and why hardly anyone has negatives in their profiles - all so that Audiogon maintains a goody-goody, trusting persona.
I'm all too familiar with Sonicbeauty's experience, and even though I ask all the right questions to reduce condition discrepancies, including all original OEM components, literature and packaging, and addressing any additional concerns to minimize surface chaffing or other shipping protections - equipment still arrives in sub-advertised condition - unaffiliated with courier handling.
My negative experiences with EBay purchases are even higher in percentage, and as Sonicbeauty stated, is a complete waste of time and energy on various levels. At least one can leave negative feedback on EBay.
Yes, this feedback situation complicates the matter. I always talk, usually through e-mails, before offering anything, trying to read between the lines of the conversation and in the item description. I also don't buy very popular stuff which, I think, more often ends up in the hands of people who are not very honest audiophiles.
Say, it is less likely perhaps to be screwed up by those who sell LAMM, VAC, Gryphon or Nottingham than by those who sell some other brands. And I mean individuals not dealers.
As for light use of equipment, some people drive hard their amps and speakers so even 2000 hours will not be light use. With players, yeah, there is another problem, they can just stop playing next day after you bought them.
For example, I have an eleven years old CEC belt drive player. After about 3000 hours I had to replace the belt, now it plays just like new but it might break any day nonetheless.
Since I built a dedicated listening room I seems to listen to music less. It takes time away from my family.
I enjoy talking to my wife and playing with my animals.
My dedicated room room is on my first levevl of my house with one chair in it. I do put in more chairs if I have more than a few people come over to listen to music.
So my my main system does have very light use. I take the time on the weekend for a few hours of some very good listening but my wife and family also need my time.
I always wanted a dedicated listening room and now that I have one, I really do enjoy it but would like to have my main syssten upstairs were I could listen to it more and also spend time with the family. My dogs and cats are not allowed in the sound room, no drinking or smoking either.
Bottom line my main equipment is lightly used.
My Nordost interconnects I am selling have light use, maybe too light, as my ad vanished today with the new download. LOL Hopefully they will come back in a few days.
I will not consider gear if a picture is not posted with the add. I also want to see the original specs in the body of the add so I don't have to go searching all over the place to find them. I'm not sure why anyone thinks I would spend $5000 on something sight unseen but I'd test drive a $1000 winter beater. What I like about pictures is that I can quickly see how a person takes care of their gear. I will not consider gear when the picture..
-shows a dust covered piece of equipment (lazy slacker)
-was taken in your garage, sidewalk or deck (stored in garage?)
-is from the manufacturers web site (hiding something or just lazy?)
-was taken with the gear on your wall to wall carpeting (why?)
-is taken so far away I can't pick it out from your other gear
Dents are absolutely out of the question. I can understand a scratch but not multiple scratches. Then I know you're running through the woods with your equipment : )
Thats funny...I have noticed that as well. I wish I had the income to allow me to buy tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear to never listen too it. I personally use my stuff, I take care of it, but I USE my stuff no matter what it is. I'll probably never sell anything on here....but if I do you can bet it won't say "light use"..lol.
While on the subject about ads, a lot of people have CD players/transports and other items that came with a remote. Some items have limited, or no functions without the remote. In their ads, there is no mention of them. When you email them, a lot don't have them. I've never sold anything here, but have done a lot of buying and selling in the past. We *always* mentioned if the remote was missing, or had heavy wear, that came with the unit. Actually, the only time I remember remotes missing, were at pawn shops. Yes it happens during moving or some other unusual occasions, but in general, it seems to be pawn shop merchandise in my experience.
Who buys used headphones anyway? Like buying a used shoe...
"Light use" means they didn't listen in the dark. I thought everyone knew that.
Have to agree about the credibility failure of those who claim they only took it out of the box to take pictures/never used.
Let's face it - buying used is a crap shoot but Audiogon, for most of us, has been relatively low risk.
Also agree that the feedback function has been rendered meaningless, probably due to some lawyer's advice.
I've got stuff to sell but not a lot, maybe a few grand worth. It just doesn't seem to be worth the trouble anymore. Maybe my heirs will sell it someday, if they can figure out what they have.