Would you trust a local dealer to help you put

EMerson,

I would tend to agree.

I recall us going through some similar discussions awhile back. The configuration options with your room seemed to be a bottleneck. Major changes there, if at all possible, may be the only way to solve the problem.

Of course it is always hard to say anything definitively without being able to hear how things sound. Maybe you can get the local dealer to come by and offer suggestions on how to fix the room acoustics? I think having some other expert ears in your room to offer up ideas is a part of solving the puzzle. Then, it comes back to what is possible given WAF, general livability, etc.

Spending some $$s to renovate the room to better meet your needs might be an option worth considering if that should come up.

I'm curious what specifically was said that motivated you to hang in there?

The dealer used to carry the OMD line of Mirage speakers and owns the OMD 28 speakers that I have. He said his OMD-28 are the last speakers he will own. From all that he says about them, I have not heard their true potential.

Does that mean that you may be better off than you thought?

Yes. He suggested that placement is my issue. I may have to change my family room around.

Any chance of "getting off the merry go round"?

There better be. The dealer is familiar with all my gear; Bryston-Classe-Mirage. He said there is no reason why my system shouldn't sound great.

"It was a good experience that has motivated me to hang in there with my current setup. "

I'm curious what specifically was said that motivated you to hang in there?

Does that mean that you may be better off than you thought?

I know you've jumped through a lot of hoops in recent years. Any chance of "getting off the merry go round"?

After some time went by, I finally went by a dealer in my area today. For the first time since my first year in audio years ago, I actually talked to another living soul who is an audiophile and interested in this stuff.. First such conversation I've had in person after years of emailing other philes. Although this fellow is the owner, I remember him from the past as always being an amiable, pleasant fellow who loves to talk audio. It was good to see this dealership still owned by the same gentleman and still in business. And what surprised me, is that he owns a pair of the same speakers that I do! So I got some advice and encouragement. It was a good experience that has motivated me to hang in there with my current setup. So glad I had a talk with him. By the way, the parking lot and the dealership was empty, other than one salesman and the owner. I thought the place was closed except I saw an "Open" sign on the door. I guess Monday evenings in August are slow, or perhaps this exemplifies the state of audio. This dealer sells home theater too and I'm sure that's what keeps his doors open.

I was getting lackluster performance from LP playback, so I went to my closest dealer for the first time in years (I have been buying used). They tried to sell me a cartridge that was much more expensive than I thought made sense for my system.

I went to a another local dealer. I was thinking a new cartridge or turntable was needed but after relating what gear I had and my reaction to it he suggested first trying a modestly priced phono stage. He set it up in a system similar to mine to audition it and the results where so good I bought it.

This has made LPs much more fun to listen to and I feel like I spent less money, wasted less time, and got better results than I would have on my own. I will go back to this dealer for future upgrades.

There are several dealers in the area who have a good reputation for giving good advice, not just pushing the highest margin equipment.

On the other hand there are some great deals on used gear that are no longer components of the month and some interesting brands are not sold in my area or are only sold direct.

hi tmsorosk:

all i said is what my preferences are and that since a dealer sells components in production, i would have to buy them used.

obviously you are entitled to your opinion, as i am mine.

i did not discuss my knowledge of anything.

Wow Mr t, you really want to make that statement above? You make yourself sound like a narrow minded no it all. I apologize if you've had a stroke or some such.

i guess i am a somewhat different kind of audiophile. i only like panel speakers and have not found a solid state amp that i have enjoyed listening to.

thus i will select tubed amps and preamps, panel speakers and probably a tubed digital source.

since i pretty much know what i want, a dealer is somewhat unnecessary.

and yes, when it comes to integrating all the components of a stereo system and the room and the ac, a manufacturer may not have the last word.

but a dealer doesn't know about the customer's ac or his room "problems.

point is as, i have said, the more a consumer is unsure of his preferences, the more a dealer adds value. the more a customer has a very good idea of what he wants, the more the customer is self sufficient.

i tend towards components that are not in production, so a dealer could not sell them to me.

live and let live. there is room enough for the direct approach and a dealer network.

let the buyer decide if a dealer adds value or not.

there is however, a certain appeal and fun factor in trying out components bought from manufacturers who provide a home audition period.

part of the fun in this hobby is the quest--trying components until one has had enough.

i think a dealer will have limits as to how many components
he or she will let a consumer audition.

Mr. Tennis,

You're cordially invited to join me on a hifi adventure. Please take a trip with me to a number of manufacturers so that you can see how many different models of speakers an average hifi amplifier manufacturer owns or borrows to test his or her equipment. Or, how many different types of amplifiers that an average high-end loudspeaker manufacturer uses to design, develop, and test their speakers.

How much money do you really think they budget to spend on other people's gear for the sake of testing and exploring compatibilities?

I promise you enlightenment on this journey as, in my opinion, coming from someone who has already taken it, your faith is misplaced.

Manufacturers know about THEIR products and to this point I do not argue. However, when you start talking about how their product will perform within a system comprised of many products, or with another manufacturer's product, or in a specific room, or with a new control system, then they will most likely only reference the specs and make assumptions regarding engineering compatibility and not sonic compatibility. The two are not the same and I'm sure you realize this.

And, I'll be the first to admit if I don't know what to expect by pairing brand X with brand Y if I have never done so.

As a dealer that some manufacturers have turned to for beta-testing, I can tell you that most products are finalized in the field and dealers provide a considerable amount of field testing and data. When problems develop, manufacturers often turn to their dealers and integrators for suggestions and solutions.

So you see, it's not a one or the other type scenario. The relationship between manufacturer and dealer is symbiotic.

And, as such, I would recommend involving both. What's the harm in doing so?

Best,
Burt

And, metaphorically speaking, dealers don't tell you what movies to watch or which music that you should prefer.

Still metaphorically speaking, we introduce you to new movie technology, new studios, movies (classics, foreign films, independent film makers), actors, cinematographers, writers, etc.

AND if you can inform us as to which genre you prefer, your favorite cinematographer, actors, directors, etc. then we're likely to make recommendations that you would love...perhaps even replacing your current favorite movie.

Mr. Tennis:

I know how to paint but I can not paint a masterpiece.

Best,
Burt

Matching equipment by specs alone will usually yield very poor results. And, again, I maintain that a manufacturer hasn't heard his or her product with as many different types of products as a dealer.

My advice to you is to ask both - a knowledgeable dealer and the manufacturer.

i did not say that a person consulting a dealer is an ignoramus. but if you can do something yourself, why ask someone else to do it for you.

here are several examples.

as a homeowner, i have done plumbing repair in my house. if i had more experience in practical electronics, i could perform electrical repair in my house.
i don't have to ask a movie critic, or restaurant critic, or music critic what movie to watch, where to dine, or what performance of chopin's 3rd piano sonata is best.

i think the function of dealer is to provide facts about components and component interaction and then provide components for sale. however, a manufacturer is usually more knowledgeable about component design and component interaction. if the manufacturer has a dealer network, he is delegating these functions to the dealer.

the best source is the person who designed the component. especially when considering speakers and amps, the speaker or amp designer is the best source of information regarding advice about amplifiers and speakers.
the amp designer can tell you what speakers may be suitable to use with his amp, and the speaker designer can proscribe requirements for an amp to drive his speakers. dealers can provide the same information, but the final authority is the designer. he has the technical background that a dealer lacks. how many dealers have designed amps and/or speakers ?

the same applies to digital hardware, especially interfaces and the suitability of transport dac combinations.

if i may make an analogy, a car dealer can sell a car, but a mechanic is the better source for technical info about a car's performance.

Whart,

Well said.

I have no doubt that Mr. Tennis can do his own taxes, has his own methods, and does just fine but isn't it possible that an expert tax attorney could secure him a larger return? That's all I'm really saying.

And the big assumption or flaw, on my part, is that he will find someone, locally, that listens, cares, and is willing to invest the time.

Respectfully,
Burt

Mr. Tennis,

You asked, "do you think you can configure a stereo system that i prefer, as opposed to a stereo system that i configured for myself?"

Yes, of course. Without a doubt - but I can only do so if you explain what it is that you are looking for. Dealers can not read a client's mind.

You need to communicate with your dealer as you do when you contact a manufacturer or take part in Internet blogs/threads.

An analogy could be made between a hifi dealer and interior designer - the client has their own taste or style but a great designer can incorporate that style to design a room (or system) far beyond that which the homeowner could have on their own.

Yes, I admit it - I watch HGTV with the MRS.

And as with designers, that experience or skill carries an associated cost. Personally, I look at it as money well spent. I do not wish to get something for nothing.

So, rather than playing "hit or miss" via mail order - you should put a knowledgable dealer to work for you. Let them expend their energy - make recommendations - bring over hifi (while you supply the beer and pizza). Make it fun - have a good time - share music with one another.

And, if they do right by you, then give them your business and pay them the retail price (which doesn't even make up for all of their time) because it is the right thing to do. It's a win-win for all parties involved.

I am not the national spokesperson for dealers but I am the type of person that understands that others have skills and knowledge that I do not possess and I routinely hire specialists such as interior designers, professional photographers, web designers, etc.

Actually, my website is another perfect example. I communicated exactly what I wanted and it turned out far better than had I done it myself.

Respectfully,
Burt

Mr. Tennis: I think he acknowledged that only the buyer knows what sound he likes.
Funny, unlike you, the more educated and knowledgeable I have become over the years in any pursuit, whether it is law, cars, hi-fi or whatever, the more I realize how little i really know.
You seem determined to prove that you can assemble a great system without help from a dealer. Nobody is arguing that you can't. But I'm not sure that make anybody that uses a dealer an ignoramus....

hi seattlehifi:

you have not answered my question:

do you think you can configure a stereo system that i prefer, as opposed to a stereo system that i configured for myself ?

if you can't, the basic flaw in dealer effectiveness, is that the customer knows what he likes and he is a better judge of what that is than any dealer.

for those customers who have no idea what type of sound they like, a dealer can be of help.

this is true of food, film, wine and other aesthetic pursuits.

the more one becomes educated the less one is dependent upon opinions to gain satisfaction or enjoyment from some activity.

the more ignorant you are, the more you are likely to be swayed by the opinion of others.

Bifwynne,

We can shoot the breeze anytime!

Also, I just want to clarify that the reason I prefer to chit-chat outside of the shop with client friends is because it's a different dynamic - more relaxed and casual. In fact, I took one of my friends (who happens to be a client) to a Mariners game less than two weeks ago. The following week, that same client and I, shared a lunch at an Italian restaurant. It's understandable that clients will have questions because they want to understand the why's and why not's of system matching or system building and just need to talk some things through or bounce ideas off of someone who may have already gone down a path that they are considering.

It's no trouble on my part to act as a sounding board. They understand that my opinion and my experience is but one perspective and they are always encouraged to read up on various subjects if they still seek a further understanding.

I can't speak to what others do but we operate by appt. only in a one-to-one setting so there is never an issue of one client taking priority over another....ever. When you hear me talk about a "big fish" it is always with regard to a Chinook or Coho Salmon. :)

So....don't be a stranger, stranger!

Best,
Burt

Burt, sadly I am not aware of a Burt/Seattlehifi shops in the Philly area. Nor do I have "friends in the business" with whom I can shoot the breeze in the off hours.

So I do what I can to cobble together a nice system, which has evolved over the years. The main reason I went with ARC is because it was the cutting-edge SOTA, or at least described as such, by the super hi-end store I hung out at as a kid back in the early 70s. Whether it really was SOTA back then is irrelevant. I thought it was.

My speaker choice, Paradigm Sig 8s (v2 w/ Be tweeter) was a pure chance decision. Nothing informed about it. As it turns out, by shear dumb luck, it is actually an incredible performer that compares with many other big name brands at multiples of its price point -- or at least so I've read.

As I said, too bad I'm not aware of a Burt/Seattlehifi store where I live. But again, even if there is (or was), I will not sit in the shop and shoot the breeze about audio while a paying customer is around ready and willing to dop major bucks on a system. That's just not right.

Thanks for the comments Burt. It sounds like you like what you do and have found a way to make it work for you. All the best.

if a person doesn't want to expend time, effort and emotion, then a dealer may be the answer. 08-11-12: Mrtennis

These are things I have spent, including money. But now I'm considering a different path to get some assistance, since doing this with no friends or associates in audio and in a vacuum has not provided enough musical enjoyment, and it's always been about the music for me, not the gear.

I mistakenly said Mr. Tennis but I meant to address my last few comments to Bifwynne.

The only thing I can say to Mr. Tennis is that you are severely limiting yourself and the potential of your system if you rely solely on manufacturers that allow consumer direct in-home auditions. It is more than just opinion that you'd be missing out on the majority of the best in hifi.

Mr. Tennis:

I'm quite fond of ARC though I do not represent the line. ARC is not available to me in this market. But it's great stuff as is Nagra which I do represent.

If you had called me and said, "hey Burt, I've got this ARC amplifier that I absolutely love - what should I mate it to as far as a preamplifier?" You would have heard me respond, "ARC."

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sticking to a single brand of electronics in order to achieve great results if you are happy with the sound.

Best,
Burt

Mr. Tennis,

If you and I, together, attended a concert where the sound was clearly off, we would most likely be in agreement. It wouldn't be a case of where I thought it was great and you were looking at me in bewilderment as if I was tone deaf.

In my experience, 99% of the time when I heard a sonic improvement, the client heard it as well. Sadly, clients don't trust their own ears enough and I wish they would. I am not keen on selling people individual components based on a review that the client read somewhere. A systems approach is what we both preach and practice.

You and I (and others in this thread) ALL AGREE that only the client knows what sounds most pleasing to him or her -and this sound can change over the course of one's life, too.

There isn't a perfect speaker that suits all. Everyone has a favorite flavor of sound. If they know which flavor and can communicate it to me then great - I will know exactly how to advise them.

If they can't describe what they are looking for then I start from ground zero - asking them what speakers they have owned - what they recently heard and liked and by playing for them 3 different sounding systems (warm, neutral, bright) to determine their preference and then fine tune from there. When I sit down with clients to design a system around their lifestyle - I design it with them in mind - not me.

I do not have to sell what I have in inventory - this is old school thinking. When you deal with the very best in hifi - special orders are a must. I cannot stock every custom finish that Verity offers for every model in their line-up. I stock one finish and if the customer likes what they hear from my demo pair then I special order a pair in their preferred finish. I never understood why some dealers went to the trouble to open a speaker, dial it in, break it in, and then just sell it at a discount to then have to unbox another and start the process over. We keep our demos on hand and view that inventory as the cost of doing business.

Please understand that from my point of view, based on years of experience, there is no hard sell to high-end AV. A-B-C doesn't apply (always be closing). The equipment sells itself. I make a recommendation and demo a system or I bring an individual item over to the client's home - we listen to a few tracks prior to installing the new item and both the client and I know if we have a winner. It doesn't matter how much or how little the component retails for - I was making house calls with $500 dacs and USB to S/PDIF converters.

Finally, many of my clients are close friends and they are welcome to spend many, many hours chit-chatting about hifi with me but we do it outide of the shop - as friends should. We talk during hikes, over a game of chess, fishing on the lakes or rivers of Washington, during long lunches, or weekend dinners, etc.

I own the company so I am, in essence, a commissioned salesperson, right? However, I do not see the dealer to client relationship as one vs. the other.

hi seattlehifi;

here is the problem :

suppose you set up a stereo system, based upon what you think constitutes great sound. then i set up a stereo system based upon what i consider great sound.

i will probably prefer my stereo system to your stereo system.

what a dealer can do as far as "value added" to achieve the type of sound i want, i feel i can do myself.

i consider myself sufficiently educated to figure out how to reach my goals and can do so, by dealing direct with manufacturers who provide an in home audition.

a dealer can suggest and recommend, but the consumer is in a better position than a dealer to know what he wants and be willing to get the necessary information to achieve his goals.

if a person doesn't want to expend time, effort and emotion, then a dealer may be the answer.

Great points Whart!! I particularly like the audio club idea. And as far as OPs asking for equipment recommendations, unless there's something that jumps out at me as being a problem or as being only fair to make a suggestion, I rarely if ever respond. There's been an OP running for some time about "The Best Speaker" or something to that effect. IMHO, it's a nonsense thread.

Bifwynne- before the Internet made it so easy to 'chat,' buy equipment and research stuff, people used to get together in hi-fi clubs, and I suppose some still do. And the regular meetings were just a part of it. You also met others in your area, could listen to each other's systems, swap out different pieces of equipment in a controlled setting with more time and less pressure than in a retail store environment, etc. And, even in the context of more formal meetings, dealers or manufacturers would bring equipment to listen to. It's a good model and one we should try to encourage and support. It requires time, though, and more willingness and effort than sitting in front of a keyboard (not criticizing you by any means, as I sit in front of a keyboard).
There is also alot to be said for 'same manufacturer' synergies within a system.
You are right about the limits of what any given dealer can supply, Seattle Hi-Fi's views notwithstanding. If a dealer thinks, based on his own world view, with the best of intentions, that brand X is the best for a particular product category at a price, that dealer may not be able to help much if you want something else that he/she doesn't carry. Seattle (and perhaps a few other dealers) would be comfortable referring you to another dealer who does carry it. The obvious advantage of a dealer (or a good dealer anyway) is support, knowledge base and in-home trial. That's what you pay a premium for, rather than buying used, from private individuals. But no single dealer can know it all or handle everything.
So, just like many other things, it is on you to do your own research as well.
And, with context, places like this board help too. I'm not sure that just posting a 'what amplifier should i buy' is going to lead to much, because each of us have our own preferences and biases too, but in the context of specific set up questions, technical issues (I got a fair amount of help here when I was doing dedicated AC panel/lines), you can get some solid input from other members who are not trying to sell you anything.

Seattlehifi, you make many fair points. But as a consumer, let me tell you where I come from. First, as I have said in many other threads, I don't want to waste a salesperson's time. When I was a kid, a buddy and I used to hang out at a local super hi-end shop and shoot the breeze with the owners about audio. We didn't have a lot of money, but we saved and bought a lot of used gear from the shop -- when we could. But this shop didn't make its bucks on selling used gear to a bunch of kid stereo junkies. It was looking for the big fish who were going to drop major bucks on Tympanies, Crown electronics (in the day), Infinity Servo-Statics and so forth. So that's problem #1.

The second problem is that few dealers carry enough gear to showcase in order to do meaningful A/B comparisons between product A vs Product B. Yes, I know of a couple of dealers who showcase Vandies, but not Wilsons, and so forth. So what I'm left with is running from shop to shop, after I have taken up a salesperson's valuable time, trying to make an "informed" call. Yeah -- right. Moreover, being in the business world myself, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that a dealer will sell what its has. So there's goes objectivity out the window. That's problem #2.

The third problem as you said is knowledge about compatibility. The way I have dealt with that issue is to pick a reputable company and stay with its equpment. As you can see from my System description, I'm all ARC with respect to electronics. And by the way, that's no slur on the quality or cross-gear compatibility of other fine manufacturers. For example, over the years, based on my readings and so forth, I've come to greatly respect AtmaSphere gear and Ralph Karsten. Interestingly, I've had a few minor compatibility snafus, e.g., matching a carty with my VPI Classic TT, overloading the outputs of my preamp when trying to drive the amp and a self powered subwoofer. Fortunately, I was able to sort through my little issues with help from VPI, Audio research and Tom Tutay. That's problem #3.

So I'm left in a state of confusion and ignorance. In the end, I read what I can, to and fro with members on AudioGon, and maybe call a manufacturer. But in the end, I take my chances and hope for the best.

Final comments: I like the hobby very much. Yeah, I would like to sit around in a high-end shop, listen to the latest gear, shoot the breeze with my favorite salesperson, and pick up a few pointers. But that just doesn't work given my biases and preferences.

As usuaul, just my opinion.

No trust yourself.

Plus, I would also like to say that of all of the loudpeaker, electronics, and wire manufacturers who I have visited over the past 22+ years, most only had 2 or three brands of other people's stuff in their sound/test rooms. They do not have the ability (time, expense, access) to test even 10% of the current models nor have access to everything produced prior.

Finally, not many, consumers realize that even the best companies utilize consultants, metal fabricators, parts suppliers, pay licensing royalties, share patents, buy other's parts, etc. The product that sits on your shelf with but one brand name or the loudspeaker that sits beside it are a combination of many companies efforts and minds.

Sure, a loudspeaker manufacturer can make several recommendations of amplifiers that will yield positive results with their product but they have likely not experienced the number of pairings that but one of their dealers will experience over the course of a single year.

I realize that you mentioned "audio only" dealers but there are already almost none of those remaining. But you also mentioned the term "large" dealerships and such dealerships, to the best of my knowledge, are not audio only.

Mr. Tennis,

Hmmm...it depends on the complexity and level of integration that the system entails. But let's examine just the high-end market for a moment.

That would seem logical but what you end up with is consumer direct Audio Note, B&O, Naim, Linn, McIntosh or Meridian (good luck setting up a Meridian system PROPERLY without a dealer!). That's it.

And there'd be nothing wrong with that..FOR SOME; however, it is unlikely that the best digital minds will also manufacture the best analog equipment. You are daring to imagine a world without J. Gordon Rankin, George Cardas, Richard Vandersteen, Carl Marchisotto, or AJ Conti to name but a very, very few.

CES wouldn't need to be held in Vegas - it could be held at a local country club or ski resort. You wouldn't really need the audio press or online reviewers to keep covering those same all brand systems.

Hey, look at it another way - remove every manufacturer that only specializes in doing one thing (type of component or device) very well. There goes Berkeley, DCS, Sonos, Wilson, Rockport, Hansen, Verity, Magnepan, Aerial, REL, JL Audio, Kharma, Marten, Basis, B&W, Wadia, Cardas, Silverline, Nola, Harbeth, Hansen, Avalon, Ascendo, Daedalus, Audyssey, Devore, YGA, Pure Music, J. River, Amarra, Dynaudio, Focal, Scanspeak, Eton...well, I think you get the point.

Now remove electronics manufacturers that don't manufacture loudspeakers - Ayre, Bel Canto, Mark Levinson, Classe, Rotel, Nagra, Audio Research, Jeff Rowland, Simaudio, Cary, and this list goes on as well.

Plus, most manufacturers that I know well would prefer not to sell one unit at a time/consumer direct, pay to advertise in all markets, spend their days, evenings, and weekends on the phone troubleshooting or providing technical support, explaining computer settings for products that they do not sell but that their customers will need to use in order to obtain the maximum benefit from their product. It's funny to think that all we do is sit around and sell boxes and run back and forth between the bank and the shop.

How many of these consumer direct companies will send people out to look at your room and get a feel for your lifestyle and manner in which the system could best serve that lifestyle?

I do not know of any equipment manufacturer that can design and install a fully functioning, distributed A/V system on a multi-deck 100+ foot yacht? (Bob Stuart perhaps?) But I realize that some may see that as an extreme (any coastal high-end dealer would not) - how about something simple and common in almost every household...how many manufacturers of high-end can test, analyze, and solve HDMI issues? Probably a few.

As a dealer, I've invested $9,000 just in professional test equipment for troubleshooting HDMI problems. Consumers have learned the word "handshake" which is but a catch all phrase. Which specific handshake issue is actually causing the problem, why is it happening, and how do you solve it without swapping out different brands of equipment in the hopes of getting lucky?

I'd also like to say that I have yet to see an all-one-brand system take any best of show sound. WHY IS THAT?

Finally, some manufacturers have abandoned a dealer base and have gone the route of direct sales. For example, Bel Canto tried it and moved quickly back to a dealer base. Velodyne did it, too, not long ago and, well, they've all but dropped off the radar.

There is no doubt in my mind, even if I were not a dealer, that a dealer can service a consumer far better than a single manufacturer. I've said it above, earlier in this thread, not all dealers are cut from the same cloth but some are very passionate about what they do and those types of dealers are usually experts at what they do.

Suffice to say, the guys at Verity Audio manufacture a wonderful product but I wouldn't want Julien Pelchat (No offense Julien) wiring my home or designing the audio and VIDEO system on my client's boat. Hey, does anybody know if Dave Wilson can program Crestron? :)

Imagine if a powerhouse like Harman sold it's products factory direct - and if they rebadged everything under one brand. What you'd be buying would be Revel or JBL loudspeakers powered by Mark Levinson, Crown, and Lexicon amplifiers, and you'd have an HDMI version 1.2 Lexicon processor (with room correction), and a re-badged oppo for a blu-ray player. I guess you have to remove the Oppo since they have to make everything themselves - so you wouldn't have a source for DVD or Blu-Ray. Yikes! Sorry kids, we can't watch Barney the dinosaur. Sorry parents, you can't catch your breath while the kids are in front of the TV. Does Naim or Audio Note manufacture a Blu-Ray player?

And by the way, 99% of the high-end electronics companies do NOT manufacture video displays.

So, you've got hundreds of brands of electronics, displays, control systems, wire companies, and speakers. And one manufacturer is going to is going to be more knowledgable than a dealer?

Sorry - No way.

in the last few years many small manufacturers, selling direct have come into existence. no doubt, such a phenomenon poses a threat to an audio dealer.

however, it also raises the question of whether a consumer is better served by a manufacturer or a dealer.

for example, a speaker manufacturer may be a better source as to the suitability of amplifiers for his design.

i think the trend of manufacturers selling direct, especially when they sell more than one component will affect the viability of audio dealers.

in the long run i suspect there will be fewer large dealers and more home sellers.

let me put the issue this way:

if you assemble manufacturers who design all components, i think they are more knowledgeable than any audio dealer.

There may be those great Dealers out there,remember when you read the tomes from dealers on here ,that the human mind is capable of infinite self delusion and that when you do something over a long period of time-that becomes SOP.

I submit I couldn't have built my system on my own. I've had the same dealer for 20 years and have purchased 95% of my stereo from him. He is a friend and someone I trust. Over the years he has recommended products that he didn't carry, but had access to. Our stereo conversations have always started with the dimensions of my room(retired Air Force and used to travel frequently), what I wanted to improve and how much I wanted to spend. Over the years he has called me many times just to say hello and see how my family was doing. He understands that we listen to a system, not individual components.

I think you could divide the customer world into two general categories: those who just want a good system and aren't going to be bothered with upgrades, tweaks or the latest developments, on the one hand; then, those who are, or become hobbyists, and are more deeply involved in the 'why' and 'how do i improve the sound' and get engaged in the process, the equipment and all the associated stuff (the reason, I think, that many of us are on a place like this).
A good dealer can serve both types of customer. The first type may have to rely more heavily on the dealer's advice, and ultimately, may never look back (except for repairs or problems). Sure, the customer may visit several dealers and listen to several systems in the process, but it's not an ongoing process once the equipment is bought and set up. The second- the hobbyist- is constantly examining, re-examining. They read, chat, raise doubts and may decide that they know what they are after- thus, the dealer's views may or may not be as important to them. I know that this has the potential to drive a dealer crazy if the hobbyist is ultimately not spending money, but sort of an audio enthusiast 'without portfolio,' constantly hanging out, expressing opinions and then buying used, DIY, etc. I would think most dealers would ultimately shun such people since they aren't really customers. And finally, the hobbyist customer who does spend money, whether they look to the dealer for advice, or simply go to the dealer because that's a source of supply for a particular line.
I would think a dealer would like the more passive customer or the well-heeled hobbyist and not want to devote time to tire-kicking hobbyists who are never going to buy (from the dealer) anyway.

What else could you do if you were too tired of the equipment-go-round to shop for your own system but you needed a new one? I suppose you could ask your friends for advice but I doubt they'd be any less biased than a dealer, and I'm pretty sure they'd have less overall experience than a dealer like Burt. Even if you got great advice from a buddy you'd still probably have to traipse all over to buy the recommended components, pay freight, wait, risk freight damage, and set it up yourself. A couple visits to a "good" dealer that you like and are comfortable with might be a nice experience, avoid all the hassles I mentioned, and you might even get it delivered and set up. If I'm ever too tired or lazy to shop for my own system (not ever likely), this sounds like a great option.

A lot of good points being made here. I am in line with Whart and Burt in terms of the value that I ascribe to a good "dealer." I think Burt's description of what a good dealer does for a customer is ideally true and as with all things, whether you receive this type of service/knowledge/expertise/support etc... depends on the actual dealer's experience and motivations. As with all things, there is a wide spectrum. Which is why I believe doing your due diligence as I outlined in my rather lengthy initial post will allow you to weed out the bad from the good dealers and to establish a relationship with those who have your interest at heart because as Burt suggests, a happy customer is a profitable customer and a sticky customer. No happy customers = no business.

You will learn a lot about what you are looking for, what aspects of audio reproduction are important to you that will lead you to emotionally connect with the music, and this will give you the knowledge to go down the audiophile path/journey with confidence and you will likely end up with a system that suits you just fine. And by the way, even after you purchase your $10K system, if you establish a good relationship with a local dealer, you will likely continue to audition new pieces of equipment and you may find that your tastes/priorities change over time. But you will only get that exposure once you establish a relationship with a dealer who will accomodate you to audition new equipment at their store or in your system and the journey will continue on.

Most importantly, just have fun and enjoy it all. That's what this hobby is all about after all. Once again, good luck and I hope once you get to the point where you have put together your first system, let us know how it all worked out :-)

Whart -

I guess it depends on the product but a reputable dealer, who is not going to discount or throw something up for sale on the Internet (selling out of territory), should be able to secure a product or put the customer in touch with a reputable dealer. Serving the client must always be the focus.

Years ago we had P.A.R.A. (Professional Audio Retailers Association). It allowed professional dealers to meet one another in a friendly atmosphere to work together to strategize on numerous topics, solve system problems and, ultimately, to form lasting friendships. I had no problem referring clients to a friend in the business if they had a product my client required to achieve optimum results. It was a win-win-win: Client's needs were met, Customer was pleased with my guidance, and that dealer would reciprocate if one of his clients needed something that I had.

A great system will stand the test of time, provide years of enjoyment, and could then be passed on to one's children. Case in point is a piece such as the Nagra 300i - built from the ground up around the 300 tube. It's won numerous design, engineering, and best of show awards and maybe 20 have been manufactured and circulated worldwide. In fact, we have 1 of only 3 that ever made it into the USA.

Nagra is a great example for another reason - I choose my lines based on my ear and experience - not by magazine reviews or manufacturer advertising budget. I think we are one of only 3 Penaudio dealers but in the months to come everyone will become more familiar with Penaudio. Same was true for Berkeley before all of the reviews had hit...and Modwright who we've been with since day 1.

Chances are that the next great thing in audio will come from a smaller independent company such as a Berkeley...or a Wavelength (who gave the world Asychronous technology?)...or a Modwright. I spend thousands of dollars every year to walk CES and find those breakout products long before the audio press is able to publish reviews. This is another service that dealers provide - to let customers know what is coming so that they can advise them properly. I've saved customers hundreds of thousands of dollars by preventing them from buying technology that was soon to be obsolete.

I can keep going on and on about the services a professional dealer can provide but it sounds like you have a good understanding. As I mentioned in my original comment - not all dealers are cut from the same cloth but customer oriented dealerships, such as mine, do exist.

Burt - Seattle Hi-Fi

Steveaudio...sorry just read your response (been away from Agon for a bit). That is very surprising. I started dealing with them 7 years ago, so it may be that the personnel have changed over and the proprietor, Alan Goodwin, has placed a priority on customer service. If you ever decide to give them another chance, ask for Paul Chambers (store manager) or Al Moulton, and if you wish you can mention my name, and I can guarantee you that their response will be very different. In any case, we are getting off topic for the OP. Hope all is well.

Whart -

I guess it depends on the product but a reputable dealer, who is not going to discount or throw something up for sale on the Internet (selling out of territory), should be able to secure a product or put the customer in touch with a reputable dealer. Serving the client must always be the focus.

Years ago we had P.A.R.A. (Professional Audio Retailers Association). It allowed professional dealers to meet one another in a friendly atmosphere to work together to strategize on numerous topics, solve system problems and, ultimately, to form lasting friendships. I had no problem referring clients to a friend in the business if they had a product my client required to achieve optimum results. It was a win-win-win: Client's needs were met, Customer was pleased with my guidance, and that dealer would reciprocate if one of his clients needed something that I had.

A great system will stand the test of time, provide years of enjoyment, and could then be passed on to one's children. Case in point is a piece such as the Nagra 300i - built from the ground up around the 300 tube. It's won numerous design, engineering, and best of show awards and maybe 20 have been manufactured and circulated worldwide. In fact, we have 1 of only 3 that ever made it into the USA.

Nagra is a great example for another reason - I choose my lines based on my ear and experience - not by magazine reviews or manufacturer advertising budget. I think we are one of only 3 Penaudio dealers but in the months to come everyone will become more familiar with Penaudio. Same was true for Berkeley before all of the reviews had hit...and Modwright who we've been with since day 1.

Chances are that the next great thing in audio will come from a smaller independent company such as a Berkeley...or a Wavelength (who gave the world Asychronous technology?)...or a Modwright. I spend thousands of dollars every year to walk CES and find those breakout products long before the audio press is able to publish reviews. This is another service that dealers provide - to let customers know what is coming so that they can advise them properly. I've saved customers hundreds of thousands of dollars by preventing them from buying technology that was soon to be obsolete.

I can keep going on and on about the services a professional dealer can provide but it sounds like you have a good understanding. As I mentioned in my original comment - not all dealers are cut from the same cloth but customer oriented dealerships, such as mine, do exist.

Burt - Seattle Hi-Fi

Burt,
Your perspective is valuable. But, I'm not sure every dealer will go out of his/her way to accomodate a customer who wants a product the dealer doesn't carry. It basically means sending the customer to a competitor, no matter how friendly. (You may have those kinds of positive relationships). I was under the impression, at least for some product lines that are territorially exclusive, that you (and the providing dealer) could get into trouble by effectively retailing a brand, if it is exclusive, that you don't carry. My knowledge on this may be obsolete, I am certainly not looking for an argument either. I just figured a guy comes in, says I want 10 grand worth of stuff, and if you sell Rega and not Avid, you are going to sell him a Rega. (I have little experience with either brand, so I'm just using those as examples).
Best, and keep the faith. As I mentioned in an earlier post, using a top flight dealer is worth every penny in terms of service and support. There are few bargains in life, and hi-fi is rarely one of them in the long run.

A good dealer is only as good as the salesman your dealing with.

I'm not adding to this thread to blow my own horn. Hardly - I keep a very low profile. But I was compelled to offer my insight as a dealer after reading about the poor dealership experiences by other audiogon members.

Margins have diminished over the years and trust me when I tell you that no dealer is getting rich in this economy.

As I see it, hifi dealers exist to serve the needs of their clients and the local music scene / music community.

I have no interest in getting into an argument - we can define "reference quality" however you would like (for example - truest to live event, ability to get up and walk around the band members in the re-created soundstage) but that goal, in my opinion, is difficult to do without the assistance of a professional with years of training and a library of experiences to call upon. Of this, you will not change my mind.

And, I believe there is great hifi at all price points. Big dollar items don't necessarily translate into better fidelity.

I disagree, wholeheartedly, that a dealer is limited to the product he carries or will only make recommendations based solely on the products that he or she sells. We routinely custom order products that may not be in high demand for the sake of meeting a particular customer's needs. With 20+ years in the business and friends at almost all manufacturing companies - a piece is usually just a phone call away.

Plus, in my own experience, I have spent, on average, probably no less than 1 full day a week (4 days per month) for the past 22+ years in actual "classroom" training - CEDIA, PARA, Meridian, Lucasfilms, Dolby Labs, ISF, Denon, Marantz, Rotel, B&W, Verity, Nagra, Harman, Audyssey, room acoustics, advanced theater design, and on and on.

Plus, as I've walked into customer homes, boats, and planes over that time, the customer's systems have been comprised of all different types of electronics and speakers and dealers learn fairly quickly what pairs best to create that sought after synergy.

I've had experience with products from companies that I have never sold but still understand how to achieve great results with those products. And, I have experience with products that are no longer available which I can recommend that a customer be on the lookout for should one show up on audiogon or ebay. Our goal never changes - it is always customer focused.

How many consumers have that type of training or knowledge base?

Finally, for the most part, our customers are not electronics hobbyists and are not prone to flipping - the hobbyist is different than someone who hires a professional to recommend or assemble a system based on the client's musical tastes (whatever flavor they choose) for the enjoyment of music. There is always a goal in mind with a finite ending. Sure, new technologies may warrant a future upgrade or component replacement but for the most part the system stays relatively intact - which, by the way, also allows clients to discern when a new component or cable is actually increasing or decreasing the fidelity.

We're music lovers first and foremost and that is why we spend the time and money on better electronics. We prefer that our clients stay focused on the music and not the equipment. The equipment is only a conduit to the music. Once the system is in place we direct them to spend their money on music and media.

How passionate are we about our customers? We operate by appt. only on a one-to-one basis 24/7 - 365.

Respectfully,
Burt
Seattle Hi-Fi

i would take issue with seattle hi fi as to the propensity of consumers to configure a world class stereo system.

first what is considered worl;d class is based upon subjective criteria.

there are many standards for what is considered world class.

secondly, the stereo system which is most pleasing is probably the goal of most in this hobby.

i see no reason why a reasonably logical person could not
figure out how to create a stereo system which provides immense pleasure.

while i don't doubt the expertise of a dealer with experience and his ability to make intelligent suggestions, he is working within the constraint of the products he carries.

for example, i like planars. if a dealer does not carry panel speakers, it is a big disadvantage, as certain amps are more compatible with panels, while others are not.

a dealer who sells panel speakers knows this, but a dealer who has little experience may be unaware of problems such speakers present for amplifiers.

i think the best a dealer can do is point out a direction someone should go to achieve a goal, but it is upto the consumer to do the hard work.

i think the customer should make the decisions and the dealer hopefully can execute. unfortunately not all dealers carry the set of components that a customer wants to hear.

too often a customer has to visit multiple dealers to sample the components on a short list. in such a situation, the value of visiting four or more dealers and attaining something helpful is dubious.

"Moreover, I take issue with individual component reviews vs. system reviews. Brand X preamp may we highly touted and reference caliber but only when placed within certain systems. "

Yes, me too when the review does not address how the component under review performed as a result of being in that particular test system. Then people wrongly might expect similar results by buying that piece alone and will often end up disappointed. Reviewers that go on and on about the piece in question and ignore everything else that is part of their test scenarios loose credibility with me immediately.

What I want to know often is how test system A with test component A compares to reference system B. If it can compare then that at least tells you that test component A may not be a bottleneck if used properly.

Burt, prop. said:
"Moreover, I take issue with individual component reviews vs. system reviews. Brand X preamp may we highly touted and reference caliber but only when placed within certain systems. "

I couldn't agree more. Assembling a 'system' on the basis of 'best' of category is not a system.
As to Internet bloggers, just like professional reviewers, you need context- you need to know what their systems consist of (see your point above), what their obvious (and not so obvious) biases are (something that can be discerned if you read, at least in the case of professionals, their reviews over a period of time) and what they consider to be references.
The value of this site, and others, like audio chat groups, may not be so much the 'rave' user review or the occasional trend (everybody is using X) but broader ranging 'compatability' or 'synergy' issues, like your point above re system matching, as well as best practices for set-up, tweaking and the like across a variety of systems and user experiences.
Glad you are still passionate about hi-fi. It's not easy when it is your business and you have to deal with the constant demands made by customers, manufacturers, employees and the marketplace. As a hobbyist, it's comparatively easy.

Sure, not all dealers are created equal and we shouldn't generalize. But I'd like to believe that most people, dealers included, are inherently good. We all just want to put in our time, earn a fair wage, and spend our time outside of work doing things we love with the people we love.

With that said, dealers are often unfairly held responsible for poor results because many customers take a component approach rather than a systems approach. By systems approach I mean every single part of the system - as it all matters and effects the end result - including the room, power, cabling, etc.

This is really what I feel, as a dealer, is the crux of the problem. You are not likely, on your own, as a consumer, to piece together a reference class "best of show" system. Can it be done? Sure. Is it likely? Probably not.

And then there's the Internet. Most customers believe that if they read it on the Internet then it must be true which we, as dealers, know is certainly not the case. Some of the most favorably reviewed equipment on the net I would not even GIVE to my friends or family members. Do I offer or recommend those products? Absolutely not.

10 years ago people sought advice and trusted their own ears but now consumers are buying hifi as they purchase artwork. Checking to make sure that their own feelings are validated by some online authority (a blogger who more often than not is a hobbiest that can string together a few coherent sentences).

Moreover, I take issue with individual component reviews vs. system reviews. Brand X preamp may we highly touted and reference caliber but only when placed within certain systems.

Anyway, I strive to help every one of our customers reach their goals, regardless of how much they spend or how much time they require. I don't succeed if my customers don't succeed and there is no business without our customers.

I'm in the business (and have been for 23 years) because I am passionate about high fidelity and I believe that higher fidelity adds to the human experience and to one's quality of life.

Burt, Proprietor
Seattle Hi-Fi

That SBS scenario was apparent to me as a result of just a single conversation with Andy there. I guess that's part of the reason SBS is no longer there physically at least.

Again, I worked there, and that was exactly the issue that pissed me off, if Andy was indeed the most knowledgable guy in audio then why is he all of a sudden now carrying a new line of gear and promoting that brand over some other brand of gear that he used to promote some short time ago which he extolled at the time, to be the best thing he has ever heard?

I wouldn't mind if the new line was some revolutionary new game changing equipment that just entered the market but when his " new " line has been on the market for years then there is no integrity in that.

If you are really interested in pursuing the best gear then you do a shoot out between what you currently sell or are interested in selling and if this new line is indeed better you sell that new line, you do this when you are putting together your lines, you do this every 5 to 10 years, unless again some revolutionary thing comes out which changes the landscape.

As per the original question, would I allow a dealer of anything to pick something out for me the answer is yes but not without education and a bit of research.

Look at this example:

Lets say you wanted to drink some some high end Vodka, or Scotch you could go to a high end spirits shop and then you could experience three possible ways to end your quest:

1: one the store would have a tasting event which would enable you to taste for your self many different spirits which would then be ideal for you to educate your palate and make an educated decision, this is a very unlikely scenario.

2: you can ask an educated salesperson, questions on what to purchase based on having a discourse on what you like and what you don't like based on past experience. Most likely
you will end with something you will like.

3: you purchase any bottle that "looks" good based on reading or advertising or what you have heard about a particular product, you purchase it and hope for the best.

It is no different in purchasing an audio system, if you have a good local dealer then you can go in and get hopefully an education by listening to his or her recommendations and then comparing those recommendations to other possible systems the dealer should have on the sales floor, and then after experience different loudspeakers, amplifiers, and digital or analog front ends the prospective customer will now know exactly the kind of sound which will work for them.