What do you guys think? With my gear is the S1 worth giving a shot for $600? Thanks
Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations
Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations
- Vinyl newbie and need some help
- Friend has a brand new Denon DL-S1 for $600 - good deal?
- I have a Mark Levinson No.326s preamp and just bought the dual mono MM/MC Phono module boards. They are the identical boards from the No,32 preamp and read that was a very nice sounding phono preamp.
- No.326s only has a couple settings 42db or 60 db and 47k ohm or 200 ohm load
- I picked up a used Bob's Device 1131 thinking it would help as my No.326s has limited setting options and read the 1131 might not work well with this cart. That this cart is tough to get the most out of but can be great.
- Should I get another cart? Was it a mistake getting the 1131 SUT. I read the No.326s sounded nice with this SUT so went for it but don't know enough to really know better either way but trying to learn.
- The No.326s phono boards has these little gold terminal screws with easy tighten by hand little knobs on the heads of the screws to add either capacitor or resistor to make the phono very adjustable but would have no idea how to figure out how to use that but thought to mention
- just wondering if this is a bad cart for me to try with my phono and SUT set up and any feedback about anything related to a cart would be super appreciated if anyone reads this. Thanks
more info if helpful below but not need to answer my question just thought to add it :)
______________________________________________________________________________________
I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system. I sold my entire old system that was tubes and high efficiency speakers and got new to me: speakers, amp, preamp, speaker cables and upgraded digital transport and got a new turntable. Kept my DAC never changing that. Love my DAC.
This system is the best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I just added a turntable.
A modern Version of the VPI Prime Aries with HRX Feet, 10" 3D Arm and Base, Prime Signature Platter, Ring and Motor.
I am looking for a cart and my friend has a new Denon DL-S1 for $600 he also has a used but good shape Clearaudio Accurate mc cart for a few hundred but i never heard of this one and a van den Hul blackheart grass hopper which I know nothing of.
I thought because the Denon is new never used that was the best option but any of you know anything about the other let me know please.
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.
As stated above I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp and added a Bobs Device 1131 SUT and both were attained a very reasonable cost which was great!
Just not sure if these carts will go with my phono and SUT.
Rest of my System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160
- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas
- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.
This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward
** Back Ground info**
** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak
** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.
** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.
** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.
To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and SUT and Turntable here we are trying to chose a cart.
Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)
- Vinyl newbie and need some help
- Friend has a brand new Denon DL-S1 for $600 - good deal?
- I have a Mark Levinson No.326s preamp and just bought the dual mono MM/MC Phono module boards. They are the identical boards from the No,32 preamp and read that was a very nice sounding phono preamp.
- No.326s only has a couple settings 42db or 60 db and 47k ohm or 200 ohm load
- I picked up a used Bob's Device 1131 thinking it would help as my No.326s has limited setting options and read the 1131 might not work well with this cart. That this cart is tough to get the most out of but can be great.
- Should I get another cart? Was it a mistake getting the 1131 SUT. I read the No.326s sounded nice with this SUT so went for it but don't know enough to really know better either way but trying to learn.
- The No.326s phono boards has these little gold terminal screws with easy tighten by hand little knobs on the heads of the screws to add either capacitor or resistor to make the phono very adjustable but would have no idea how to figure out how to use that but thought to mention
- just wondering if this is a bad cart for me to try with my phono and SUT set up and any feedback about anything related to a cart would be super appreciated if anyone reads this. Thanks
more info if helpful below but not need to answer my question just thought to add it :)
______________________________________________________________________________________
I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system. I sold my entire old system that was tubes and high efficiency speakers and got new to me: speakers, amp, preamp, speaker cables and upgraded digital transport and got a new turntable. Kept my DAC never changing that. Love my DAC.
This system is the best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I just added a turntable.
A modern Version of the VPI Prime Aries with HRX Feet, 10" 3D Arm and Base, Prime Signature Platter, Ring and Motor.
I am looking for a cart and my friend has a new Denon DL-S1 for $600 he also has a used but good shape Clearaudio Accurate mc cart for a few hundred but i never heard of this one and a van den Hul blackheart grass hopper which I know nothing of.
I thought because the Denon is new never used that was the best option but any of you know anything about the other let me know please.
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.
As stated above I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp and added a Bobs Device 1131 SUT and both were attained a very reasonable cost which was great!
Just not sure if these carts will go with my phono and SUT.
Rest of my System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160
- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas
- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.
This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward
** Back Ground info**
** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak
** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.
** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.
** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.
To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and SUT and Turntable here we are trying to chose a cart.
Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)
Showing 43 responses by fsmithjack
The is the info on my SUT is below. I sort of understand it but not sure what to do about it type of thing. It adds gain that I will need and that he said it was designed to be used for real low output MC cart which this one sure seems to be .15. Someone wrote that the problem is that it needs to be loaded down and that hurts the gain and why a passive SUT is not ideal but again not really sure what that means - well i kind of do but not sure what to do about it, Cinemag 1131 Ultra High quality laminations, lower inductance and superior sound. These transformers were especially designed and tested with several low-output moving coil cartridges. These are very difficult transformers to construct and require a precision manufacturing process that can only be done by David Geren at CineMag. Includes premium construction with C&K Brand Silver contact toggle switches, and Deluxe Gold Plated RCA jacks. These specially designed transformers are wired to connect a moving coil cartridge (on a turntable) to a phono preamplifier, phono input. Switchable for 1:20 (26 dB gain) or 1:40 (32 dB gain). Into a standard 47k phono preamp, the effective input impedance of the low gain (1:20 ratio) is 118 ohms. At 1:40, the effective input impedance is 29 ohms. The 1:40 ratio is perfect for those extremely low output cartridges including some by Audio Notes and Ortofon SPU. Do this info mean if I buy the Denon that I set my Levinson to 47k ohm and 42 db and then set this to 1:20 or 1:20?If I use this SUT do you guys think it will sound ok or should get another cart? My buddy has the cart and would really like to buy from him if it will work ok. Thanks guys |
Do you guys think this is better than the Denon for $600 for my gear and set up: Dynavector 20X2 Phono Cartridge High-Output (Less than 50 hours) for $750.00 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-dynavector-20x2-phono-cartridge-high-output-less-than-5... Maybe offer $600 for this or is the Denon better for $600? Thanks guys. |
dlcockrum - thanks my friend is a fantastic guy - very nice and always helpful and super generous with his time but also with his actual gear. He is still a dealer of sorts out of his home and loft and use to be a big dealer and knows all the who's big dealers, OEM's and writers personally and well, such a great sort of eccentric guy who will give you the shirt off his back if you let him who's probably double my age and forgot more than I will ever know. Such a nice and knowledgeable guy I am glad to consider my friend. He has totally hooked me up a few times but I always return the favor and have gone out of the way to make sure I reciprocate that generosity and then some at times just because I appreciate anyone that goes out of their way to help me. Just how I am built. We are funny. We both sort of try to out due each other hooking each other up with gear that is not in use in our main systems. My wife is like, you are just giving that to him. I'm like yeah he gave me this. It's funny and cool. These are the carts he has but the Denon is not his but what he can get it for me for. He's funny and talks real fast and kind of hard to know what he meant when he said VdH Grasshopper works great and you will love it but it has this little thing that needs to be glued back in place but won't effect the sound and should be easy to do. Wasn't what he meant so was thinking maybe better off with the Denon but if it needs a little repair that he thinks will be easy to do does that make sense? I am the digital guy and he is the analogue guy so I defer to him. He tells me the Clearaudio Accurate MC cart is a great cart also but I never even heard of it. , nandric - thanks for the info - let me know how yours sounds. I actually got the SUT before I knew about this cart option. I read the 1131 SUT makes my No.326s sound much nicer is why I bought it but I am too new to vinyl to understand the hows and why's but I am learning. I love my Levinson No.326s preamp and was looking all over for the right preamp for my new re-fit system. I tried a half dozen and was getting frustrated because I liked my Bricasti direct much more over all the other preamps I tried until my Levinson. It blew me away and was way way better than my Bricasti direct. I was so psyched. I then was able to find brand new Levinson phono modules for $800 so I jumped. I then came across a the 1131 SUT for $730 so thought that was a nice match to my Levinson because what I read so jumped there also. Now my buddy has access to this Denon S1 for $600 and thought I could get a pretty competent little set up for not too crazy money. I know its not a world beater set up but hoping good enough to compete with my digital. I am hoping I like it more than my digital but in honestly my digital is very good. I need more actual experience of owning, trying and hearing stuff to know for sure what this is all about. I am a seasoned audiophile but vinyl newbie have after reading the settings on phonostage are simple and will be best served by a SUT I went for it. I hope it works out. I have not totally decided on the Denon yet. My other friend told me to just get a Dynavector 20x2 because my SUT will work great with it and it is better than the Denon but I am not so sure. A lot people really like this Denon. I just want to best sounding cart I can get for around $600 - $800 range. Thnks guys |
Thanks guys - I thought it was a good deal - my buddy always hooks me up - and I am going for the Denon but he thinks I should try the Van Hull first - saying once he fixes, glues a little part it will be awesome - i need to ask him more about this. He said it was a Van hull Black Heart Grass hopper - I have found nothing on this - only found Black Heart by Kiseki Blackheart and thought maybe it was modded or repaired by Van Hull but then not sure where the grass hopper comes in - I am lost on this one and is why I am leaning toward the NOS Denon cart but he said he had it forever and it is an amazing cart - not sure what setting or even after repairs it will be ok or not? Anyone know about this or maybe just stick to the safe Denon nos cart? Thanks |
Thank you - great info! Man I could have used the money on the SUT and got a better cart. I didn't have a cart yet and one showed up used on Audiogon for a good price so thought I better grab it. Because I am a newbie a couple of things I read where the No.326s phono is decent but not up to the linestage which is fantastic and that a SUT makes it a little more real and makes the sound nicer and overall improves the sound. I thought I might have a great bang for buck phono set up with the phono boards being $800 and the Bob's Device being $720 I thought I was cooking with gas. The linestage in the No.326s us truly the best I have ever owned and love it. I was searching far and wide for the right pre, It's a $10k preamp (but bought used paid less then half that) so thought to add a phono for $800 would be great value but then I read some things saying its not that versatile with low output mc carts and that's why I went for the SUT. We live and lean I guess. |
Guys - I just found this video of my new to me turntable that I will use this Denon S1 cart with. Give you an idea of what I am working to set up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3spiIqz-zk It is Kevin Deal / Upscale Audio showing the table I just bought used from the original owner for about 1/2 price. He bought in August 2017 Love clean used gear mostly because I can't afford this stuff for the new prices. Kevin made a small special order batch of VPI tables he says which is so cool. It looks way better in this video than the pics that I just bought based on. I am now even more psyched! The guys who sold it to me said he went into Upscale to get a Prima Luna tube amp and came out with this VPI table and a Manley Chinook phonostage and a Prima Luna integrated. He said it was an impulse purchase and he only used a couple times because he owns a Gerrard 401 with SME arm and he said this table is nice but he likes the sound of his 401 better. One mans not good enough is another's best I've ever owned. Works for me :) . |
That makes sense and is a good idea. I'm glad because before this post I didn't really know anything about the Denon S1 or really that my preamp was able to drive it on its own. I am glad to know the Denon is a nice cart and that it might sound nice with my pre straight up. Then I can sell the SUT get a better phono cable and base for under my table. I have a Solid Tech Hybrid Rack but the shelves are 19" wide and my table is 22" wide so thinking of getting a 3 inch thick maple butches block 18x24 and put it in the top and have it overhang a couple inches on the side. Need to find a good source for this. |
Thanks roberjerman - but this is purely about about my learning and there are no worries involved at all. Audio is my hobby and learning about it part of the hobby for me and so never any worries. It does the opposite for me it takes the worries away. With this post I already am a much smarter person about this topic so I am just trying to learn. We have over foot of snow hitting as I am writing and the Governor just declared a state of emergency and I have the Celtic replay on from last night on and some Chinese food left overs in the microwave and it is a very rare snow day off for me. Have some old school Muddy Waters Honey Bee playing and not a worry anywhere in sight and just enjoying my day. |
OK guys - how about this - need your help on this one Kiseki Blue Gold Spot phono cartridge - used 200 hours $800 To get this price I need to buy soon asap - more than I want to spend but is it as good as I am being told it is. It is used so other than trusting the seller we have no idea but he says it is mint with 200 hours or stick to the NOS Denon S1 for $600 and be happy??? What do you guys think???? I have no clue to need your help! |
Awe come on man (rauliruegas) that is part of the fun getting the best gear I can for the money I have saved in my audio account. I can only afford what i can afford and I never claimed I am some genius that always makes perfect decisions but I try to get the best equipment I can for the money I have saved up and this includes looking for bargains. I mean what is the alternative to overpay for gear? How does that help me? I can not buy gear with money I don't have so getting the best gear I can for the money I have is sort or a natural way to proceed? I mean its audio and its fun. I come on here and ask questions to help me make better informed decisions but that's all really. There are no worries at all about any of it. I don't want to make mistakes but if I do then it willl be because I tried doing what I thought was best and it didn't work out. Oh well I will learn from it. I am not sure I have made a mistake, many people tell me the SUT was a good buy and will work well with the Denon so i will wait to hear it before I know it actually was a mistake. So here was the deal. I had $5,000 saved from the sale of some nice but no being used cables and a nice but extra amp and wanted to get into vinyl but for $5000.00. There are a million ways to do this but looking for what I think is the best bang for buck is how I went about it. How else should I do it? Should I go on Audio Adviser and buy a brand new Music Hall or Rega (very fine tables by the way) and buy a new Clearadio cart? I thought of that and read and looked around and made my decisions. I bought a $7,000 - 4 month old table that still has the plastic wrap all around the plinth for $3,000.00. I bought brand new $2,000 dual mono phono boards for my Mark Levinson No.326s preamp for $800 I bought a $1500 Bob's Device 1131 SUT for $720 Now a NIB NOS Denon SL-S1 cart for $600 This is how I spent $5,120.00. I did this by trying to get the best gear I can for the money. So if I didn't try to get bargin then what would $5000 buy me? I mean if I had $20k then maybe I would not be so focused on bang for buck but I am not rich and this is money I had so I tried to be smart and put the best analogue system together for $5,000.00 Maybe I did good and maybe I didn't but ether way I am not that worried about it. I do what i think is best and hope it works. I am pretty chill with audio. Not because I have money to burn but because I mostly buy used. I can sell anything I buy today tomorrow for the same or more other than carts or tubes so why worry? Its all good. I enjoy buying, listening to it, selling it, reading about it, writing about it, learning about it and sharing what I learn but there are no worries. If you have a hobby and it gives you worries than i would argue its not a good hobby then. Hobbies are for spare time, to enjoy and have fun with.I don't do it for a living or anything other than simple recreation. I am new to vinyl but I'm a long suffering digital guy but none of it is that big of a deal. If I like vinyl I am sure I will start to collect a bunch of carts but was asking to get a little more info not because I am worried. Why would anyone make that assumption? Trust me no worries just trying to learn more about some stuff from someone that knows more than I do. No more or no less. On my snow day just trying to get some feedback on some items but light feedback as this is for fun and leisure :) |
I came close. There is a Gerrard 301 Full rehab in here for $4500 with a Dynavector 20x2 Cart but I went for the VPI. It’s funny but I tried for a while and looked and if had someone to give me some good ideas I would have tried another table. I didn’t want a Rega or Music Hall or Project or any of the older Technics or Thorens or Denons. I wanted something kind of modern and not super hard to use and If I am not crazy about It I can get my money back. A decent starter table well it’s a bit better than that but that’s what it is. There was an Aritisan Fidelity Lenco L75 with a nice Origin Live arm but was out of my range. There was an AmaZon Reference with DP-6 Morch 12” arm but I needed to have some acrylic company out of the country make me a custom board and then drill holes and I’m too much a newbie for all that but that was close. It’s funny because I was a tube guy for years and bought tons from Kevin - his tubes are awesome even if he is joe salesman. I saw those VPI tables Kevin had for $7,000 and loved them and wanted one. Was looking for weeks and one popped up and bam I hit it like pigeons on popcorn! I also have met Harry and think he’s a super nice guy and there is good demand for their tables. Sure there is better there always is but would have been open to better table and still am if you guys have any advice. I flip gear often and am not afraid to play around with something and ship it right the heck out if I am not enamered with it. No worries. The only thing before my Magico’s that I was attached to was my Bricasti. That thing is never going anywhere except back to Brian ever 6 Months for the latest hard add upgrade. Rather than releasing new products he just keeps upgrading the old one and that keeps his sales brisk and he loyal owners super happy. What tables are better for $3,000 - I love to learn new stuff. Thanks |
chakster - that Luxman is awesome looking - never heard of it or seen it before - cool table and I will remember it and keep on the look out for one but that would have caught my eye because it looks amazing. dgarretson - everyone ratted me out on the Feikert table saying the arm is junk and way under the class of the rest of the table and it was $1,700 more but really as I said I am a newbie to vinyl and I saw the Aries limited table a few months back and really liked it and I wanted one - the Upscale Audio VPI ones because everyone has a Prime or Classic but these are rare and unique tables well from my uneducated on turntables point of view anyways. I just loved the look and I know a lot of people on Audiogon bash VPI tables but there are a lot of happy owners of these tables in the world and they can't be as bad a people say because there wouldn't be so many people that love them and so many out there but really I remember he was asking $7000 for them and he had a demo one for $5,200 and at the time I couldn't afford it but wanted it and was offering to trade stuff and was trying to sell stuff to get one and he sold and I was bummed. Months went by and I sold my extra gear and got my Levinson and then got lucky enough to find the NOS Reference No.32 phono boards so I was all in for a table. I had it down to: Clearaudio Ovation with Clarify Arm - out of my range but i liked it a lot Transrotor Zet 3.2 w/Oracle SME arm but it was a little intimidating for a newbie and $1500 more and if something broke and went wrong I would have no help so that too much table for me in my situation Garrard 301 rehab was nice but $1500 more VPI Prime Signature VPI Classic Signature Artisan Fidelity Lenco L75 Origin Live Arm Acoustic Signature Triple X with TA1000 Arm Dr. Fieckert Woodpecker w/Jeco Arm I was mulling these over and leaning toward Woodpecker and Garrard and then the Upscale VPI Aries showed up for sale and I was like oh man this is the table that started me wanting a table in the first place so I jumped on it. I am sure there are better tables this I don't doubt but I am really new to vinyl and the 3D arm can't be that bad. Stereophile recommends it and that might not matter but my hope was that this table with a SUT but it looks like I don't need or even want a SUT now but thought I needed it but thought this table and SUT and my Levinson and the Denon cart would be nice way to get rolling with Vinyl. I mean I know this sounds dum but I liked the way the VPI looks and I thought all thing being equal why not get the one I like but now I know that probably wasn't the best idea but still hope its a decent table. |
I am really happy to know that my phono preamp is a nice one and can run my cart by itself. Also VPI released a little mod, I am not sure exactly what it is just read about it but it makes the arm much more stable and makes it a duel unipvit, I think? Does that make sense. People say its great and a nice update and makes it more stable, easier to use and sound nicer? |
Ok GUYs - I NEED INPUT on this ASAP because I’m mailing out the check - my buddy just called and told me he could get me an: Audioquest AQ-100L Its $75 cheaper that Denon - not that the $75 matters but thinks I’ll love it. What do you guys think? It’s new also this or Denon / I’m making decision now? Thanks |
OK GUYS - Ortofon MC A90 Cart for $900 cash plus a trade my Bob's Device 1131 SUT?. Says it has 400 hours on it and it is mint... $900 is way more than I want to spend but it's only $300 more than the Denon and if it really is that much better then what do you think? If I can cut right to chase - well, I would rather but want your thoughts please... Is it way better. Hopefully this is the last one I have to run by you but you guys have taught me a ton and I need it. Regardless of anything I am much more knowledgeable so this is all good. Everyone says SUTs are helpful and good to have but if you pre has enough gain chances it will sound better direct. I have 60db in the phono and 18db in the pre. 78db seems to be enough Few have said to sell my SUT and get a better cart which so this is sort of doing just that. Also, can it be rebuilt later on by Soundsmith for reasonable money or no? I have no clue? Thanks . |
folkfreak - great technical advice. Thank you I was worried about spending all my money and trading away my SUT for a cart that I have no idea about. Don't know anything about the private seller and yes right it's not a great deal and I make a point to try and stretch my audio dollars as farrrrrr as I can. Wish I knew the seller or background that would be different. My buddy who I trust whole heartily will sell me his Clearaudio Accurate for $500 - a $100 less than the Denon and one of the other helpful folks on this thread told me it was second from the top back in the day. My buddy said its got maybe 40 - 50 hours tops but more like 30 on it and has had it in his large stash for years. Wish I new more about this one. I don't even know the spec on it or what to worry about set up wise. Anyone have an idea or any thoughts. I already sent him the money and he will ship me whatever cart I ask for. Just checked UPS and my table has made it local a couple towns away to the UPS warehouse and is being delivered on Monday. So excited... I will post pics for you guys... Here is my new phonostage and table pics when it comes https://www.flickr.com/gp/35630112@N05/30iw78 |
Still kicking it around. Need to tell him by 10:00am tomorrow when he will ship it. I have it down to Denon and Clearaudio and 90% learning toward the Denon but would love any feedback and or info on the Clearaudio. He said it was a $5k cart and its replacement is $10k and it was at the time supposed to be one of the best cart out there would love someone to provide feedback. Without that i am just going Denon. Thanks |
For my VPI Table I can use my DAC Interconnects but swapping will get old quick. Any recommendations for a decent IC phono cable that's for a reasonable price? With VPI using the RCA box i can use regular IC but is there a certain one you guys use or know of that is nice and will imporve my performance or one I should know of or one I should consider? I know phono is a little different so want to ask for idea's and thoughts. You guys are REALLY helping me. I know first hand is best but this thread is helping me a lot. Thank you for that from all of you guys. Its great to get both sides of the conversation it helps round out my new but growing perspective. |
2channel8 - he is a nice person. An audio friend which many times is someone you did a few deals with and got to talking about audio and have things in common and life is good. He has been kind to me and I have returned the favor and then some because it is a nice thing to repay kindness with even more kindness. Something like trying out a friends NOS NIB cart to see if it is likable or works well with my gear is something that would need to be offered and not something I would ever ask of anyone. Don't get me wrong it would be great to try out the cart but not the type of thing I would ask. The thing is I am sure he would let me if i asked because he is like that but even if he offered I would not accept the offer. Why, because if he was kind enough to offer that and I accepted then even if I hated it i would never return it so why even bother. Thats my take. That would make me uncomfortable and I avoid things that make me uncomfortable. I avoid things that cause me stress. I avoid things that could help me at the deference of someone else. Got to make sense for both and that is why I like doing trade deals and we have done quite a few of those. I like to ask advice on here because there are many smart and kind people that take the time to help me better understand things that I am not familiar with. Great thing really. Me, I am just looking to make better buying decisions and not for nothing but this site on so many occasions be it a DAC, AMP, PRE, Setup or Speakers or cables I have received fantastic feedback that is spot on from people with first hand knowledge of the items I have only read about and it has helped a great deal. Thanks for the response and feedback. Just want to learn and enjoy the hobby. Chat with some new people, have some laughs without a worry in the world. |
I do like the idea of learner more about matching the entire chain - not something I ever really considered. My Bricasti M1SE run via balanced IC's to Levinson No.326s preamp balanced to my Pass X350.5 never had to worry about enough voltage gain and worrying about any of that but I see how the .15 needs more gain to make it all work via my Magico S5's. Thats cool info. Just wasn't on my radar so great info for me. Just as a simple rule of thumb with this gear and now not using a SUT and of course my VPI runs via single ended but the No.326s says it converts everything to real balanced out which seems kind of cool. What min voltage will allow full access to all my gain. .3 or .6 or somthing like that? Just curious because I have no idea how to calculate it or how you did and vaguely understand it but only because I have never had to think about it but I like to learn about better understanding this. Thank you |
Might need some advice / help / tips on mounting my cart? Is there simple rule of thumb or technique I can use or do I need spend hours reading how to stumble though the Rega Arc Baerwald protector found on Vinyl Engine and HiFi News’ Analogue Test Record? It just seems daunting for a newbie like me? This part takes the fun away. I am sure once I have done it and get a feel for it then all will be well but I don't even know what I don't know. Once you know what you don't know things always get easier and was just wondering if there is anyway to help slim down the learning curve. |
Thank you Folkfreak - I appreciate it. I truly am swimming in the deep end with crazy vinyl hobby. Man is there a lot to learn. Holly smokes. OK guys read below the line below: Check this out. I was googling and reading about the Denon S1 Cart and came across this on Audio Circle - very smart people talking about the S1 and how matching to a proper built phonostage and loading the cart and the capacitance of the cables matters and are important because this is such a unique cart that seems to pose so odd balance challenges and i hardly understand it. I mean I can follow it but not sure I could ever employ any of this knowledge without at least partial translation into to newbie language from others. Read this info I just read - I copy and paste from Audio Circle: ____________________ Audio Circle: Denon S1 and preamp considerations on: 16 Sep 2011, 09:58 pm » First a little background - A few members here, participated in a group review of the DL-S1 on another forum. That thread is probably no longer there but it was very interesting, at least for the participants. While most of the reviewers has great results and thought it to be a wonderful cart, two of us had mixed feelings. I had a lot of trouble nailing down the the right load. I started out around 300 ohms, varied it up and down somewhat but couldn't get entirely satisfactory performance. On acoustic music it sounded as if there was a distortion that emphasized the overtones. It gave everything a goosed up sound that became fatiguing. I wasn't able to resolve that and finally mailed it to John TCG, for the next evaluation. The DL-S1 is rather unusual in that it has 0.15mV output and 30 ohms impedance. It also tracks light, something like 1.3g, if I remember correctly. It has an aluminum cantilever and a special elliptical stylus. On an Audiogon thread there was a discussion about cantilevers and the DL-S1 was mentioned. Johnathan Carr (designer of Lyra carts) came on and mentioned that some aluminum cantilevered carts have extended response, and all of them do not resonate within the audible band. In response to my mentioning these loading problems, his response: >The current DL-304 and DL-S1 are somewhat unusual. >They also have very low output and 30 or 40 ohm impedance! That is because the coil former is non-permeable, and therefore, rather inefficient in terms of generating electrical output from physical motion. But in return for that inefficiency, they avoid the distortions that all permeable cores inflict. All MMs and MIs have this distortion. So do most MCs that offer relatively high output voltage in comparison to their impedance. So do Raul's beloved step-up transformers (^o^). But non-permeable core MC cartridges like the DL-S1, FR-7, JVC L-1000, Benz-Micro Ruby et al, don't. >Results seem very system dependant. A cartridge like the DL-S1 prefers to have as few electrical contacts between itself and the phono stage input as possible, and a v-e-r-y good phono stage. In this sense, their requirements are no different from any other low-output MC. A little bit more extreme in degree, that is all. That's interesting. I didn't know why those Denons had such high impedance and minuscule output. Some more considerations: A "forgiving" phono stage is not what I would recommend for the DL-S1, nor for that matter, any other LOMC. The obviously desirable properties for a good MC phono stage are high gain, low noise, high immunity to RF, high overload margins (which implies high maximum output levels), and minimal deviation from the RIAA curve. Low capacity within the input stage benefits resolution and sound quality, but this partly conflicts with the requirement for low noise, so the phono stage designer must keep a sense of balance and trade offs. One more critical requirement IMO is low capacitance between cartridge and phono stage, with the tonearm cable being the biggest contributor. The signal coils of the cartridge possess inductance, and this will react with any capacitance between the cartridge and phono stage to create a big resonant peak at ultrasonic frequencies (frequently in the RF range). This peak is much higher in frequency than any human can hear, but it can upset the circuitry of a phono stage that hasn't been designed with adequate consideration to RF or high-frequency overloading. This is eminently capable of of causing IMD at a much lower frequency, and this you can hear. This kind of IMD is quite obnoxious to the ear, since it is non-harmonically related to the LP signal, and therefore can sound outright dissonant. Reducing the input impedance at the phono stage helps squash the RF resonant peak and thereby can reduce the phono stage's IMD that the ear finds so grating, but in return such heavy loading throttles the dynamics, transients and low-level resolution of the cartridge. Far more advantageous, IMO, to use a phono stage that doesn't need for the cartridge to be throttled down to make it listenable. A phono stage designed according to this philosophy should have the side-effect of making records sound more quiet, because ticks and pops and tracking distortions will simply be treated as normal signals, and will not trigger circuit misbehavior. FWIW, I have never had the need to load down any cartridge to under 100 ohms, for any phono stage that I have designed, and believe that I could afford considerably higher loading than 100 ohms with the DL-S1. The loading situation with LOMCs is very different from MMs and MIs, where capacitance is needed to properly tailor the frequency response. I note that some designers of MC cartridges and phono stages use quite massive amounts of capacitance to roll-off any ultrasonic peak from the coil inductance-cable capacitance resonant peak, but personally I have found this approach to take away more than it gives. So there you have it. The loading down with < 100 ohms came from somebody on Asylum who loads it at 30 ohms. You lose half the output doing that. I didn't go below 100. My AHT phono has almost no capacitance. If I knew the situation I could have gotten a couple of caps and tried that. That overtone thing I heard was probably IMD. I guess system dependent was right after all. Now I think I know why. ______________________ Are you guys sure I am not way over my head with this cart? |
Um, Yeah heck yeah way too late for any of that, I am not scared it can't be that hard and if so i will still push through via reading and asking for help and if needed having someone come help me somehow. I mean I have jumped in head first as I just purchased a $7,000 turntable, $12,000 Line/phonostage, $949 Cartridge, $1,500 SUT and $2,500 interconnect that I will share with my DAC until I buy a new dedicated phono cable. Thankfully these are new MSRP and I did not pay all those prices as I bought some of this gear used and I already had the linestage and IC but with counting those even at used prices I still have well over $10,000 into this vinyl venture and that is just to put together a semi-competent starter analogue package. My pre linestage is world class but the phono is not up to the linestage or that I think anyways. The phono i hope is still decent enough as I bought the modules new for $800. All this said I wanted to best compliment the gear I already had and put this exclusive analogue package together. I went with VPI because it is not some crazy esoteric piece but rather a pretty common setup that tons of people have so I can find some help pretty easy there. I mean tons of people talk about this cart but good to know definitely don't want to use a SUT and wish I had a little more gain and with my approach that buying used allows a built in exit strategy I am hoping I like it. I mean buying a top cd or sacd player is simple but my digital system is not walk in the park either. Actually if you look at the digital I have put together there are more moving parts than this table set up. There are no short cuts in hifi but hoping to at least get off the ground and can remove the training wheels and get good enough to make me happy sound as i learn. With digital I can listen to music for 283 days straight for 24 hours a day and not hear the same song twice, Records i have maybe 20 records but no biggie I will buy one here or there as I go. I want to hear that sound or close to that sound I have read about a thousand times. Not the worlds best but good enough that I get a feel for what all the hoopla is all about. No pain no gain. Who knows maybe I dump this analogue set up and put the resource into the rest of my system. Or maybe I sell my beloved Bricasti and all my digital and focus all my resource into vinyl because I love the sound or maybe I walk a middle ground between both who knows but my gut says there is room for both as long as each is good enough as to not lose interest in the other. This is why I tried to put the best vinyl system i could for the money I had and why I am asking for help so I can learn more. Basically I chose to put the $5000 grand I had into this rather than a $5000 media server so we shall see if that was a good decision. One reason I went this route is because I listened to that $5,000 server and though my customer digital set up is better. If I spent $5000 on a digital server and liked what I had better then that would have got me no where and as far as my amp, pre or speakers I think they are good enough where $5000 would have me running into the law of diminishing returns. That leaves cables. I have pretty good cables and some are very good and $5000 in cables doesn't go that far once I get into getting better than I already have so I chose records. Want to take a kick the vinyl can and appreciate all the help. The more the help the better because I need it it :) |
Yes namdric for sure the entire system is so very important but the rest of the system I understand, have built and am quite happy with. Associated Equipment: Digital Sources: Bricasti Design M1 Special Edition DAC; Sonore microRendu 2.5 Music Server, Uptone Audio JS-2 Linear Power Supply, Small Green Computer Sonic Transporter I5, Uptone Audio LPS-1 Ultra-Capacitor Power Supply (2), Wyred 4 Sound Remedy Femto Re-Clocker, Uptone Audio ISO Regen, Denon 2910 DVD/CD Player Analogue: Turntable: VPI Aries 3D Limited Editon, Tonearm: 10.5 Inch Printed 3D, Catridge: Denon DL-S1, Step Up Transformer: Bob’s Device Cinemag 1131 Preamplification: Mark Levinson No.326s Duel-Mono Linestage and phonostage preamp, Antique Sound Labs AQ-2004DT Tube Linestage preamp Power Amplifiers: Pass Labs X350.5 Balanced Stereo Amplifier Loudspeakers: Magico S5 M-Cast Bronze Speakers, Rethm Saadhana V3 Speakers Cables: Phono: Darwin Ascension, Interconnect: Nordost Heimdall 2 XLR (2), Nordost Baldur XLR, Darwin Ascension 2, Verastarr Grand Illusion Signature, Cardas Clear Reflection, Speaker: Kubala-Sosna Emotion 2.5m, AC: Zu Event, Zu Mission, Verastarr Grand Illusion II, DC: Gent Audio Custom DC Cables (Canare/Oyaide) (8), USB: Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference, Curious Cables 200m Regen link, Audiocadabra Ultimus3 Double-Headed Solid-Silver USB Cable, DROK USB Multi meter/Tester, Digital: Black Cat Silverstar 75 BNC/S/PDIF, MIT Terminator-3 RCA S/PDIF, DH Labs Silver Sonic D-75 RCA S/PDIF (2), Tara Labs Prism 100dx-1 Tosilink, HDMI: AudioQuest Chocolate 1m, AudioQuest Forest 3m, Ethernet: AudioQuest Vodka RJ/E, AudioQuest Forest RJ/E (3), Cardas Clear RJ/E, Netgear GS108 Switch, Sundries / Accessories: Solid Tech Hybrid 3-Shelf Rack w/matching / attaching Solid Tech Hybrid 2 Shelf Rack, w/Solid Tech Rack of Silence Amplifier Stand, SRA Ohio Class Isolation Platform, Sumposium Segue ISO-Platform, PS Audio P10 Power Plant power conditioner; Red Dragon Audio Ceramic Cable Elevators (4), EdenSound Brass Vibration Weights (8), Bright Star IsoNode Footers, iFi Audio iPower 9V DC Power Supply (2), Uptone Audio Amber Regen, Cardas Audio BTS-9 Banana to Spade, Breeze Audio Linear Power Supplies (2), PS Audio Noise Harvesters (6), Furutech GTX (R) outlet, Oyaide R1 Beryllium AC Wall outlets (2) ; Blue Circle Audio The Yalu Balula (2) — Fsmithjack |
Yup the SUT was a bad call in my rig with this cart but in fairness to me I bought it before the cart. Bob’s Device Cinemag 1131 in perfect 9/10 Condition for $750 for anyone that wants It that has a cart it will work well with. i am considering a straight up trade my pre for a Manley Steelhead - prob a bad deal for me as my pre is worth more and is a better linestage but the Steelhead Phono I’ve heard is great but doubt I have the guts to pull the trigger. My pre is just too good regardless of the Phono. I paid $575 with Shipping for Denon S1. Not sure the A90 is a little more money. Plus the A90 had 400 hours and who knows how many real hours. The thing could have 985 hours on it and where does that leave me. Atleast the Denon is NOS NIB and seemed like a decent cart for $575. My hope is that it is good enough to wet my appetite for a better Cart and it becomes my first extra in what hopefully is a nice litte stash of clean low carts to play around with. Yippee !!!! Lol |
Oh yes I thought we were speaking of the one I posted that I was considering. Half the time on my phone so I didn't notice you offered a mint one. Lot more money but yeah I wish this looks awesome. Maybe I sell my SUT and another interconnect or something and try one of these at some point If they are that good and it change things that much I might need to have to find away to get one at some point. Good to have something to shoot for. I never even knew that cart existed before this thread so good stuff. |
Table has arrived. Wish I had the cart and I would unpack now :) https://www.flickr.com/photos/35630112@N05/shares/ze0346 |
Nandric - Thanks Yes and No... lol Every decision I’ve made in my life is my own so no dobt there. I’d like to think I’ve made more good ones than bad ones but heinsight can be such an unfair critic but also a good tool for growth when not too harshly overly employed. One needs to cut oneself some slack for not having a faultless crystal ball if for no other reason than inner peace :) With Audio I’ve found these decisions can be helped with getting information from other people that have first hand experience. Especially Audiophiles and more so on Audiogon. Of course a healthy pinch of salt is required in some instances but most all of it can be enterned into ones own mental algorithm to be employed toward the final decision as long as each part is stratisied to remove as much of the personal opinion as possible. Your just not not going to find a more intelligent, thoughtful, helpful group of people anywhere in any other hobby in my opinion. Maybe the common denominator is a genuine love of music whith all its color and beauty tends to make one want to help. People that so throughly enjoy such beauty and appreciate the challenges of bringing the highest quality of it into our own homes for ourselves and our families seem quite willing to help one another and this common pursuit. This in itself is a fun part of the hobby. Of course the incredibly made and engineered equipment makes it fun also and getting it all to match just right well that’s the challenge and in my opinion one best pursued by pooling our knowledge and experience. i wish had this same pool of knowledge and intelligence to draw from with all the decisions I make in life. My bet is that crystal ball would be less valueable :) I look at he specs and understand or interpret to the best of my ability and then ask for some opinions when I don’t really understand or need some more clarity. That said each time I’ve a taken a bit more time when the opportunity to take it presents itself it helps when the brows are taken in proportion to what I’m trying to learn. All this said if you look at my profile you will see I’ve asked for feedback on my amp, Preamp and Speakers and always got great helpful feedback so this is a decision making tool I find to be invaluable for making better informed decisions regardless of much of it being other folks personal likes or dislikes. It’s still super helpful info. We all love the best sound we can get. :) |
Thanks
nandric and
rauliruegas
I actually emailed the guy with that A90 and asked if he would be interested in a NOS Denon S1 and a Bob's Device Cinemag 1131 as trades along with cash for his cart. I sure would love to hear my new turntable with the A90 mounted and all set up perfectly by someone that really knows how to do it just right! That would be awesome! That other guy got back to me and wants to do a straight up swap of my Levinson for a Manley Steelhead but don't think I have the guts to pull the trigger. I looked long and hard for my 326s but man everything I read about the Steelhead say its a great phonostage. My fear is that with my Bricasti it will be a big letdown and don't want to give up already what I know and love. |
Hey Guys - wanted to share with you my most recent project and review for my network media player: Bricasti M1 - M5 - M12: Network Player - My REVIEW w/OEM Response Brian Zolner @ Bricasti https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/bricasti-m1-m5-m12-network-player-my-review-w-oem-response-br... |