World's best Pre-amp for $10K and above?
Looking for the HOLY GRAIL in Audio? Here it is. I'm in my early sixties and retiring to my final system, which I was going to purchase during the past twelve months and decided to put on the brakes, and investigate whats out there as the most advanced engineered high end audio products for the money in the market place. As far as I'm concerned, the two top engineers in the world for the best Amp and Preamp at low prices are Bent Holter with Hegel Audio in Norway and Roger Sanders with Sanders Sound in Colorado. Why? The Hegel P-30 Pre-amp is a game changer, and will easily compete with Pre-amps at $30K and above. The FM Acoustics 268 Preamp that retails for $107K, uses a technology thats called "feedforward" instead of feedback.
Amps and Pre-amps since the early 80's have all used either global feedback, zero feedback or local feedback to filter out noise and lower distortion by sending and filtering the feedback current to filter capacitors or or an extra filter transformer. A small amount of voltage feedback occurs at the output stage in amps and preamps which goes back into the parts and boards causing noise and distortion which smears the quality of the music.The best Preamps in the world all have S/N noise ratios at 125 db's or above. The Hegel P-30 Preamp uses the same feedforward technology as FM Acoustics but is a more current design that Bent Holter calls "Sound Engine" patented technology that eliminates feedback which is why the P-30 Preamp has a S/N ratio of 132 db's, which has never been accomplished in high end audio with a Preamp costing $10K or below. The same applies to Roger Sanders Magtech amplifier which uses a patented linear voltage regulator that controls and regulates voltage with no excess voltage going back into the amp causing heat and distortion problems. The amp puts out 900 watts into 4ohms. Krell makes a pair of mono blocs that also use a similar voltage regulator. The amps are $100K a pair. HERES THE PERFECT SOLID STATE SYSTEM. A Hegel P-30 Preamp. A Sanders Magtech amp, A pair of Aerial Acoustics 7T speakers. The worlds finest SACD player, the Playback Designs MPS-5, designed by Andreas Koch, who invented SACD technology when he worked for Sony. He built the worlds first outboard DAC in 1982 and is legend in digital engineering. The MPS-5 is the most analog sounding player on the market which costs $17K. The Hegel P-30 is only $7500.00 and the Magtech amp is only $5K. The Aerials are $10K. Buy the solid core cables from Morrow Audio. They are low capacitance cables which matches up perfectly with these components. This combination sounds like the very best tube and solid state gear on the market. The whole system will cost about $42K but will sound as good as any system costing $200K. All of these products are game changers. If you want better looking cabinets and faceplates, then blow your money, but you will not get better performance for what this system has to offer. It is the HOLY GRAIL you are searching for and there is no better combination for the total cost of the system.
Amps and Pre-amps since the early 80's have all used either global feedback, zero feedback or local feedback to filter out noise and lower distortion by sending and filtering the feedback current to filter capacitors or or an extra filter transformer. A small amount of voltage feedback occurs at the output stage in amps and preamps which goes back into the parts and boards causing noise and distortion which smears the quality of the music.The best Preamps in the world all have S/N noise ratios at 125 db's or above. The Hegel P-30 Preamp uses the same feedforward technology as FM Acoustics but is a more current design that Bent Holter calls "Sound Engine" patented technology that eliminates feedback which is why the P-30 Preamp has a S/N ratio of 132 db's, which has never been accomplished in high end audio with a Preamp costing $10K or below. The same applies to Roger Sanders Magtech amplifier which uses a patented linear voltage regulator that controls and regulates voltage with no excess voltage going back into the amp causing heat and distortion problems. The amp puts out 900 watts into 4ohms. Krell makes a pair of mono blocs that also use a similar voltage regulator. The amps are $100K a pair. HERES THE PERFECT SOLID STATE SYSTEM. A Hegel P-30 Preamp. A Sanders Magtech amp, A pair of Aerial Acoustics 7T speakers. The worlds finest SACD player, the Playback Designs MPS-5, designed by Andreas Koch, who invented SACD technology when he worked for Sony. He built the worlds first outboard DAC in 1982 and is legend in digital engineering. The MPS-5 is the most analog sounding player on the market which costs $17K. The Hegel P-30 is only $7500.00 and the Magtech amp is only $5K. The Aerials are $10K. Buy the solid core cables from Morrow Audio. They are low capacitance cables which matches up perfectly with these components. This combination sounds like the very best tube and solid state gear on the market. The whole system will cost about $42K but will sound as good as any system costing $200K. All of these products are game changers. If you want better looking cabinets and faceplates, then blow your money, but you will not get better performance for what this system has to offer. It is the HOLY GRAIL you are searching for and there is no better combination for the total cost of the system.
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Hmm! I was just using caps as an example. I was referring to everything that goes into a final product. Customers don't just buy a design but a finished product that is built from a group of SELECTED parts. Just the fact you chose solder, wire, transformer, cap, tube socket, fuse ... A over B, you are essentially voicing the final product. I've spoken to many "competent" designers and they prefer point to point wiring in that it's easier to test different parts to archieve the desire sound. |
Its obvious that when comparing preamps that not one sounds exactly like the other. I don't know about the distortion thing, but there must be certain specs that we can't or do not know how to measure as of yet for these differences. I agree with Atmasphere that the circuit is the thing. Shitty cirucit with VCaps do not make the grade. |
I always chuckle when I read these posts comparing a smaller system to a healthy one. I suppose a $42k system could out perform a $200K system, but only if the $200K system was not properly setup and synergised. Kind of like saying your Yugo out performed a Porshe on a test track, but forgot to mention the Porshe had a flat tire and was driven by someone who had never operated a motor vehicle before. |
Solder: use a eutectic type to avoid bad solderjoints- pay attention to the alloys as they have different uses depending on the connection. IOW there is no one best solder for all solderjoints, but this is an engineering issue, not a matter of taste. If you find yourself disagreeing, I advise you to take a NASA soldering class or the like. Wire: different types of wire have different applications and of course there is always a quality issue. However if you know what you are doing you can spec the correct wire for the application in such a way that one would be hard pressed to find a better wire. The wire you might use in a hand-wired high impedance application will be very different from a speaker connection. IOW, this is an engineering issue. Transformers: We don't use output transformers so I will limit this to power transformers, but the quality here is important as customers don't like noisy parts and they have to hold up and not get too hot. Not surprisingly if the transformer is under-specked it can affect the sound... This is an engineering issue. Caps: Many audiophiles will be amazed to learn that electrolytics can perform as well as good quality film caps; this has entirely to do with how well the designer understands the characteristics of the part (many don't.). Similarly, such understanding applies to film caps as well, for example what characteristics will work the best in an EQ circuit. A good cap will have good specs- you can see which one will sound better as a result. Certain principles are poorly understood; for example in coupling caps its a super bad idea to bypass a large cap with a smaller one (smearing occurs) but we see this all the time. IOW, this is all engineering. I can go one but I hope that my point was made by the simple use of the word 'competent'. To put this another way, I spec V-Cap Teflons in our designs and did not have to audition them to know they would work fine (it was obvious from the specs), and this was proven in the results. If you know your engineering, you don't have to 'voice' (not saying that you don't verify your results either- that smacks of incompetence as well). Do I make myself clear? Voicing speaks to the designer not understanding the materials, swapping things in hoping for a decent outcome. My recommendation is to pay attention in class when you are at the university, however I hope its not a great shock to find out that a lot of designers didn't go to engineering school. BTW since it was missed by some in a prior post I am only speaking to amps and preamps- definitely not speakers. Speakers can be a bit of an art, and there is the issue of how the amp and speaker interface, and the intentions of the designer. For more on this see: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php |
Atmasphere, are you saying there is no "art" involved in designing amps and preamps? If it is all engineering, then given any number of competent designers using the same circuit, would they not develop identical sounding amps and preamps because they would all make the same design decisions based on engineering specifications regarding wires, caps, solder, etc? Or why do competent designers choose different circuits if they all have the same goal, namely to make a component sound as much like real music as possible? In the May/June 2012 issue of TAS there is a series of interviews of nine leading electronics designers. One who is surely competent is Nelson Pass. In the article he wrote "If there has been progress (in the improvement of electronics), it has been where the subjective character has been refined in the service of the listener's experience. To paraphrase McLluhan, we are turning our mature technologies into art." Much of the design work at Pass Labs, I've read, is by trying something in a design and then subjecting the prototype to intensive listening tests and then modifying it until they are pleased with the result. This process may not be called "voicing", but it does seem to involve some subjective decision making. Is that not "art". I appreciate your views and contributions as a designer on these forums. Thanks. |
Atmasphere, are you saying there is no "art" involved in designing amps and preamps? If it is all engineering, then given any number of competent designers using the same circuit, would they not develop identical sounding amps and preamps because they would all make the same design decisions based on engineering specifications regarding wires, caps, solder, etc? Or why do competent designers choose different circuits if they all have the same goal, namely to make a component sound as much like real music as possible? In the May/June 2012 issue of TAS there is a series of interviews of nine leading electronics designers. One who is surely competent is Nelson Pass. In the article he wrote "If there has been progress (in the improvement of electronics), it has been where the subjective character has been refined in the service of the listener's experience. To paraphrase McLluhan, we are turning our mature technologies into art." Much of the design work at Pass Labs, I've read, is by trying something in a design and then subjecting the prototype to intensive listening tests and then modifying it until they are pleased with the result. This process may not be called "voicing", but it does seem to involve some subjective decision making. Is that not "art". I appreciate your views and contributions as a designer on these forums. Thanks. |
Peterayer, You make some very good points. Atmasphere may reject the term "voicing" but clearly the desired outcome(sound quality) is subjective and in the end is determined by listening.I find it difficult to except one can absolutely 'know' the sound of any product based exclusively on it`s specifications and not hearing the part/component in question.Engineering ability and competence obviously is important but there is certainly an art component at work as well to complete the final picture.Otherwise we all could simply rely on specs as Audiozen does and be confident of the sound quality.Atmasphere you must 'listen' to your components to verify your expectations ? and if you do listen then there is`nt 'complete' reliance on engineering theory and specifications. Regards, |
Peterayer, Nice post and very good observations.Atmasphere you may not accept the term "voicing" but I find it hard to believe you or anyone can absolutely be sure of the sound of a part or component based 'exclusively' on measurements and specifications(your Vcap example). It seems listening is required at some point to confirm/verify the expectations. Atmasphere I`ll assume you listen to your finished products or is this a wrong assumption? If measurements and specs are that dependable then Audiozen is right with his reliance on stated figures.Is`nt the building of audio components a mixture of engineering, science and art? Regards, |
You can tailor the sound through the topology. For example, a purely-single-ended design will exhibit a 2nd order harmonic distortion which will give it a rich sound. If no feedback is used, it will not be harsh until pushed hard, but will feature dynamic character far above its actual power. Yet it will also have great inner detail as distortion vanishes at lower power levels. Sound familiar? Sunn, a well-known guitar amplifier company, used to make a line of transistor amplifiers back in the 1970s that were recognized for their rich sound. They employed a single-ended zero feedback FET preamp which was primarily responsible- that 2nd harmonic was the richness. A tube amp with a single-ended input and a push pull output will exhibit a 2nd harmonic with a prominent 5th. The 2nd will be less than that of an SET so it will be less rich, and the 5th will contribute to brightness and some hardness by comparison. Choosing what topology IOW says a lot about how the resulting circuit will sound. The art part of it is understanding the human hearing perceptual rules, as in general the audio industry tries its best to ignore them. So designers have to educate themselves about that subject, and sort out what it is exactly that they are trying to do. IMO this is still engineering, but I can see some calling it 'art' and maybe it is... |
I do not just rely on specs to determine the musical quality of an Amp or Preamp. If that were the case, I'd buy my separates through a mail order catalog without listening. The point I made is that the most expensive and most musical separates globally that sell in the $15K to $100K range, brands that are well recognized and have outstanding international reviews for years, all have specs that are in common with each other. Higher S/N ratio's, ultra low distortion, and wider bandwidth's and higher damping factor's. Its not that these audio engineers at these companies try to get the highest spec numbers first before listening, but just the opposite. They all strive to design products with the lowest noise and distortion possible to keep the music signal as pure as possible without any disturbance to the musical signal. By achieving this goal will always result in specs with very high numbers due to superior design engineering. |
Audiozen, when are YOU buying YOUR system? It has been some time since you sold yours. This time AGAIN, you're saying this one is the best. Show us by YOUR OWN actions, not just words. We are still waiting for your move.... What do you have to lose? You have all kinds of connections, and inside information, according to what you say. You've had numerous personals contacts with these companies. It's time! |
When solid state components tout ultra low distortion numbers are they just referring to 2nd order or low order reduction in general?And perhaps not accounting for the higher odd order that they produce in place of? the high order odd distortion sounds worse than the low even order distortion by far IMO.Musical instruments produce low order even harmonics rather than high odd order harmonics. |
I find the topic of parts quality in amps very interesting. There is a well known amp builder in Minnesota that blew me away after I spoke with him. I was interested In buying one of his hybrid amps that is pretty well reviewed. Small company and pretty well respected. Van Alstine. I was ready to buy one, but did not after our conversation. He is a nice guy and builds nice products. When I asked him about the caps he used he quickly and and somewhat defensively started on a long attack against "so called audiophile" caps. He does not listen or should I say purchase based on listening tests, but by specs and adherence to very exacting specs. He is a spec guy. I know he is very skilled and educated in the area of electronics. I respect him for that. But I know from real and repeated experience that caps do sound different - and some better then others - period. I have replaced many cheap caps in key positions with Mundorf SGO's and Duelund CAST caps and each and every time with Big improvements realized. These caps sounded better In gear that was well designed and highly reviewed. I simply cannot buy from a builder who stongly feels all well speced caps, resistors, wire etc... sound the same in anything he makes. The builder must listen and make decisions based on listening tests and trial. This should be priority number one! Yes, the cap needs to be off high quality and last etc... I just cannot understand how a knowledgable builder can dismiss what is so easily discerned through the ears? Perhaps my hearing is wrong and I have convinced myself of something that is not real? Perhaps these caps that measure well sound good enough or close enough to the builder and he does not appreciate the nuances that make Hifi sound more like real music? Nuances that make a big difference to me may be nothing to another. Again, I suppose that is why I did not buy or try his amp. I would love to take one of his amps and replace several key signal caps with Duelunds and listen. I suppose it's possible his amp would sound no different, but this would be the one and only time such a result transpired based on my experience and others I know. I understand if the builder must hit a price point and watch costs, but to passionately state that this audiophile boutique cap stuff is all bull is out of bounds to this Aphile. |
So do we agree that competent designers listen to their designs as part of the development process? If so, than the decisions to use certain parts and reject others are based on objective engineering principles and then refined by the subjective act of listening until a design meets a particular set of goals. It's a combination of art and science and it appears that what we call it is a matter of semantics. Now, what ever happened to the Hegel P30? Does anyone own this thing? |
Grannyring, Could be these builders take much pride in their products(experience,time,effort,research etc.) and may feel insulted that someone comes along and says they can improve the sound of their pride and joy components by 'merely' changing out their carefully selected and tested parts.May just be hard for some of them to accept.The fact is that significant improvement is possible with certain upgrades just as you and others have personally discovered. Regards, |
Grannyring, OK- I have to admit that I run into engineers that rely entirely on specs. Decades ago I used to work at Sperry Corporation on something called the Eagle Project. What I saw there is borne out in my own experience- that an engineer that does not go down to the test floor, see how things are going, talk to the technicians and the like working on the thing is also an incompetent engineer. There are just simply things you have to take into account! So a competent engineer will always monitor the actual product rather than sit behind his desk. In audio that means you have to listen to it. And yes, components make a difference; I think my point is you start with the circuit, and the specs which should provide 99% of the sound of the unit. In my work, I never rely on 'synergies' which is what we could well talking about here- using components to shut down a brightness, or to brighten up something that sounds dull. I've played with a lot of high end caps and resistors and in particular with the caps I've not found that many that had problems- most of them sound fine. But I *have* seen a few that were problematic- and when you delved into the construction details and specs, it was easy to see why. It may well be that what I do is called 'voicing' by others but I've yet to *have* to use a particular cap or resistor to make something sound right, although I avoid cheap parts in that regard (for example Xicon caps can sound quite bright). Usually the higher end parts are simply adding nuance and almost never anything tonal. I do not just rely on specs to determine the musical Am I the only one that sees the contradiction in this paragraph (compare 1st sentence against the rest of the paragraph). Audiozen, you are completely mistaken about specs in this paragraph, for example 'damping factor' mostly has a basis in mythology. There are speakers that need a damping factor of 1:10 and others that need 10:1. There are no speakers that need more than 20:1. So why would an amp with 1000:1 be better? The simple answer is it probably isn't. What is going on, just on that subject alone has to do with how the amp interfaces with the speaker. For example the fact that tubes are still around 60 years after becoming obsolete should tell you that the audio industry does not have a good answer for that. For more look here: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php The distortion thing is also counter-intuitive. Ultra-low distortion, IME indicates that while the unit may measure well, its highly unlikely that it will get complements on its sound. This is because what distortion it does make will likely be elevated amounts of odd-ordered harmonics which the ear finds unpleasant and depends on so heavily to determine sound pressure. So we can hear trace amounts that are almost impossible to measure. |
In the current 6Moons there is a review of the 75,000 dollar Tenor linestage. The designer Michael Broeck has a very interesting discussion concerning negative feedback,odd order distortion,natural sound and 'natural' distortion and the human ear-brain processing of sound. He attempts to explain why most very low distortion amplifiers often sound very unnatrual and unconvincing musically and why the human ear detects and identifies this as incorrect. Food for thought. Regards, |
08-20-12: Charles1dadThere are many ways to skin a cat. A different approach is NOT necessary incompetent if it solves the same problem. Have a open mind and easy on the EGO. |
Atmasphere.."damping factor has a basis in mythology".. disagree. The top mega-buck solid state amplifiers all have in common very high damping factor number's. A list of some of those amps..Soulutions 501 and 700 mono-blocs have a damping factor of 10,000. Simaudio Evolution 880-M, damping factor 2000. Simaudio Moon 400M, damping factor 800. Accuphase A-200, damping factor 1000. Parasound JC-1, damping factor 1,200. Hegel H20, damping factor over 1000. All class D amps have damping factors at 1000 or greater on average. The bottom line why these engineers strive to have high damping factors is the higher the number, the lower the output impedance, results in ultra low distortion coming out of the speaker. The most critical reason is the woofer. If you have a massive forty pound woofer in a 300 lb. speaker, you better make damn sure the amp you are using can grab and control that woofer with an iron fist. Designers of high powered amps with high damping numbers and low output impedance are well aware that woofers have larger piston's that have longer back and forth travel distance since low frequency waves travel a longer distance than a midrange or tweeter wave. Having an amp with high damping and low output impedance, which is usually below 1 ohm, results in ultra low distortion and perfect piston motion in the woofer, to make certain the low end is as deep, clear and powerful as the speaker designer intended. |
Here is a quote from a very famous designer (a degreed engineer) who has no qualms and makes no apologies for using negative feedback in his designs (although he has designed amps using zero negative feedback as well) but is certainly conscious of distortion and it's effects on sound. In addition you will not find boutique parts in his designs and he is quite well known for his testing and ability to make some of the quietest amplifiers out there. "I intend to write a paper on the more complete story of 2nd harmonic distortion theory. I will say here that it must be minimized (but not at the expense of adding other distortions). What listeners don't seem to realize is that large amounts of 2nd is fine for a single note but not for a full orchestra. As I like to say "Please tell me what is the second harmonic of Beethoven's 9th? The amplifier is having a little trouble figuring it out". Once music becomes a complex signal, the second harmonic argument goes right out the window. The amplifier can only act upon the instantaneous voltage it is given and has no idea what notes are being played. At that point, it's Intermodulation Distortion we had better be taking care of. How many of us have heard our single-ended amps make a mess of a symphony yet play a solo voice beautifully?" Like Kijanki mentioned there is more than one way to skin a cat. Also, I can certainly can see why some designers like Frank Van Alstine might get a bit miffed at audiophiles and their persistent obsession with boutique capacitors and other parts. I have come to learn that as Ralph said when you start with a sound circuit design, everything else seems to just fall in place. Good reliable parts is a must, but that doesn't necessarily translate into mega dollar capacitors and resistors. |
Audiozen, I can only assume that you did not read the article at the link I posted earlier so here it is again: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php The top mega-buck solid state amplifiers all have None of these are what I would call the top transistor amplifiers and they all sound pretty much the same to me. You may disagree with me, but that does not make what I said any less correct (I tried not to waste my time at MIT Minnesota). There really are speakers out there that need an amplifier with low damping factors and they will sound terrible if you use such amps as you listed. And no speaker known to man needs more than 20:1. Damping factor is mythological. |
Clio09, not sure your post is based on reality in my life experience. I am not obsessed, but certainly illuminated and educated as to the difference certain, not all, parts quality can make. No reason for any open minded builder or Aphile to ever get miffed as you say. Open mind often equals learning. Frank also thinks wire and power cords make no difference. Opportunity for learning here it also seems. The wire employed makes a difference, never mind just caps. This points seems like a captain obvious statement to those who have experimented and compared with consistent effort. Not all expensive parts can bring about positive and obvious improvent, but the Duelund line of resistors, caps, inductors are wire is simply a cut above. Even Frank's amps would benefit, though they sound very good due to his circuit design and passion for building well built gear. |
Clio09, it seems to me that other builders can get a bit closed minded on this topic of parts quality in terms of their impact on the music played through their gear. I have owned the RM 200 and thought it was good sounding if perhaps a little solid state like for my tastes. The RM9 was owned by a friend. My friend did replace several key caps to great effect in that amp. That amp certainly realized a HUGE leap forward in sound with the better caps. Yes, the original caps were still operating to full spec etc...Parts do make a difference and bring out the very best possible in any design. Atmasphere has said it best in his posts above. The design is tantamount, but top tier parts perfect and can complete a great design. Builders should be open to this fact. Yes, wire, connectors, caps, resistors, volume controls etc do make a difference that can be heard. No snake oil here, no obsession on a wrong path. Instead this obsession in parts leads to better sound and learning. Boutique caps can be very expensive and that is indeed a righteous reason not to use them, but don't get miffed at their use and passon for them. To do so is to stay put and not learn. |
You can tailor the sound through the topology. I think my point is you start with the circuit, and the specs which should provide 99% of the sound of the unit. This is what I gleaned from Ralph's posts above. Good quality and reliable parts, and not necessarily expensive parts, is a must, but its all in the circuit. I don't know Frank Van Alstine and have never heard his equipment. I do know he has a fine reputation and is respected among his peers, which says a lot. I think he's probably earned the right to have a strong opinion on the subject at of boutique parts and wire. I do know Roger and I have his equipment, one unit modified by the previous owner, and another stock. I can say I learned more about audio in one session with Roger than I did in several years (and a few wasted dollars) previously. Same for conversations with others like Ralph. So people can listen to parts and wire and whatever else they enjoy listening to, hopefully music will be included in the equation. IMO, based on what I have learned, the enjoyment still starts and is largely responsible through a well designed circuit. |
Grannyring no one is saying that parts don't make a difference. Atmasphere said a well designed circuit is more important than just the parts alone. This thread is not talking about parts, but about amplifier specs. in deciding whether you want to own the component. Changing to the Dueland is not going to change what you can measure unless the part your replacing is plus or minus 20%; in other wards way out of spec. |
Grannyring, Many would agree with you.In my former Quicksilver preamp I relaced the standard MIT capacitors with V-cap and SoniPlatinum(coupling caps). The improvement was profound! There`s no other way to describe the change.There are examples of very exspensive audio components that use run of the mill average parts,crossovers(in high price speakers) are notorious for skimping with cheaper parts. |
Charles1dad, I tried real hard but I could never get those MIT caps to sound right to me, if I used them as a coupling cap. If I am not mistaken though, the MIT uses several caps in parallel in a single package. I have found that to be a bad move in a coupling cap (although it can be just fine as a bypass in a power supply)- whenever there is a bypass in a coupling cap, smearing occurs, and causes troubles in the high frequencies. So I figure you use one cap and give it your best shot. The problem is that in tube preamps, you often have to have a very large cap at the output, and even if its the best Teflon or paper and oil, its still going to have an adverse effect due to the size required. So I came up with a direct-coupled circuit, basically side-stepping that problem. Another, rather surprising way to get around that problem is to go with an electrolytic! I know, I know, most audiophiles think electrolytics are terrible and they have good reason to think so. The problem is an electrolytic will not function correctly unless it is polarized with a voltage. In a tube preamp this is easy (you should try it!), but in a lot of solid state designs the designer neglects to polarize the caps and so they introduce distortion when the waveform charges the cap in the wrong direction! **That** is where electrolytics got their bad reputation. If I have not made the point clearly in this post, the bottom line is that as a designer you have to watch what you are doing with caps. The MIT above is a great example- a good cap, but don't use it for coupling. Same thing with electrolytics, but make sure that the DC across them is always more than the total AC waveform they will pass if you do that they will easily give good quality film caps a run for the money!). See what I mean? |
Jwm and Clio09, I don`t see where anyone here has downplayed the importance of the circuit and its instrinsic quality. A good circuit is the foundation but its ultimate potential and performance can be hurt or aided by the choice of parts.a good circuit with good parts will out perform the same circuit with inferior parts. No one is suggesting a high quality part will transform a poor circuit, that is`nt going to happen. The better quality parts should have less degradation to the purity of the signal is the only point.This seems intuitve to me.This is why changing tubes(output and small signal) and cable etc. all have audible effects despite the level of the circuit involved.Capacitors are no different and are likely more significant. Regards, |
08-24-12: Charles1dadWell said Charles1dad ... exactly my point. I guess you lead them to the water but can't make them drink. |
I borrowed a Hegel P30 to try in my system to compare with my VAC Ren Mk III preamp....connected into Statement VAC 450 stereo amp driving Magico S5. As context, nothing I have had in my system before came close to the VAC preamp. I bought a Conrad Johnson GAT preamp (obviously more expensive than the VAC or the Hegel). The GAT was SOTA but was beat by the VAC -- GAT was not as open and harmonically accurate as the VAC. So, getting the Hegel P30...I was ready for a similar experience... But, to my surprise...the P30 is awesome and holds it own easily with the VAC. It is dynamic, clear, coherent, musical, and lets more detail through without being analytical. My foot was tapping - always a good sign. I actually didn't have to listen as hard to hear details and ambient cues through the P30. It's transients are sharper and better defined. Timing is less sluggish than the VAC. What the VAC still has that nothing beats is harmonic richness, especially in the lower registers and with male voices. Today is the first day I realized this may be a romantic coloration versus accurate harmonic texture coming through. There was more energy in the lower registers of the VAC but it sounded a little smeared and condensed/constricted compared to the Hegel P30. So...this is the first preamp I have heard that I could live with and be as happy (and in some regards happier) as I am with my treasured VAC Ren Mk III. The P30 is an incredible preamp for the money. $7,500 and it easily beats the GAT I had in my system. Hands down to these ears. |
Podeschi, I've own 7 tube pre and haven't found one not sensitive to any tube rolling. My line stage doesn't have 12ax7s but the stock 12au7s, a Philips 6189w is very warm and thick sounding. In my system, I found rolling the 12au7s had a bigger effect than the 6922s. Since you like the Magico sound, I think Telefunken ribbed plates will be an excellent match for you. Also had great success with Tele 12ax7 in my McIntosh pres. I've heard positive comments on Psvane but no personal experience. |