Will DAC always sound better going straight into a Power Amplifier?

My experience says no. Sounds great on some music but hard driving music runs out of gas. 

 Typically not. The sound can often sound at first blush, but it looses heft and musicality. While there are folks that have components that work to skip the preamp. That is not the most common experience by a very large margin. Most folks go back to a preamp to get the best sound. 
 

If your objective is to put together a preamp-less system, it can be done… it is difficult, but some folks claim they have done it. I’ll keep the magic with my preamp.

using a vintage restored Yamaha solid state preamp 

That would not be my first choice.

My schiit dac didn't have enough potential.  My Chord does  So not always.

Ok, can you all recommend me some good vintage or 90's solid state preamps that could pair well with modern DACs like the Musetec 005 or Holo Audio May?  I want to do a vintage solid state preamp for now because i should be able to find it cheaper, and then do some restoration vs. a couple-thousand dollar tube preamp like Audio Research.

I had suggested the Yamaha preamp because of one of its stats:

Frequency response: 5Hz to 100kHz

This is being discussed on another thread, the most general common answer is NO, a pre-amp is still required for better SQ. Personal opinion every time iv tried to go direct from DAC to Amp it never sounds as good as a very good pre-amp in the chain.

However, if you are lacking a good pre---then its possibly better just to go direct.

@fai_v Hi, You can use the Musetec 005 without a pre-amp because it has a built in volume control which doesn't take much away. However a good pre-amp will give you a bigger, wider, deeper soundstage.

I prefer SS amps and pre-amps because they don't distort the sound but good SS is usually more expensive than valve equipment.

Usual suspects are Nelson Pass designs (Threshold, Pass etc.), Mark Levinson (but the power cable is underneath), Spectral (glorious but expensive), Conrad Johnson (SS and Valve).

I use SMC but they are hard to find.

Many more but these are among the best.

A normal modern DAC will output at min. 2v RCA or min.4v balanced. That is equal to a normal preamp output. Forgetting weird impedance mismatches for the moment, the only job left for the preamp is attenuation. If the DAC has a good relay based rather than lossy digital attenuator, there is nothing left for the preamp to do other than add distortion. If you do have an impedance mismatch, get a passive attenuator

@fai_v : Robert Grodinski Research RGR 4. A giant-killer preamp from the 80's that beat the then-current Levinson, Audio Research, Precision Fidelity ... preamps for sound quality! I have one in use right now. Bought it on an eBay auction for $199! It has a world-beater phono stage if you are into vinyl.

@fai_v 

 

If you buy a 30 year old preamp. Make sure you have it professionally reconditioned. Components like capacitors will need to be replaced, pots cleaned… of it isn’t likely to sound very good.

Are you looking for the best sound? Or do you just want to have a vintage preamp? More than likely they aren't one and the same.

 

I experimented with my DAC going direct to my power amplifier. The sound is good but NOT light-years better than using my preamp. My ’gut reaction’ is it might not be as clear, and the music does not seem as smooth. So, an hour later, after more listening. when going direct, I felt the music was missing something. The music was not as open or engaging when going direct to my power amplifier. The music felt more closed in.

When going direct, the sound was flat, lifeless and without an engaging factor. The additional of the preamp brought things back to normal. I am happy I did this audition so I now know and can forget about it.

For my application, and setup, I believe the preamp is needed to help the music sound natural, clearer, and engaging. My experiment is done. I believe that a preamp makes the music sound better.

I know that other people prefer going direct from a DAC to a power amplifier. Based on my audition, my decision is based on my equipment, my environment and how I listen to music. There is no right or wrong answer since it just depends on the individual. Everyone has a different opinion on going direct to an amp or using a preamp. The answer is it depends on the equipment and the sound you like.

I suggest you test the DAC direct to power amplifier and then make your decision.

I like the above post that says " I will keep the magic with my preamp".   

 

I like the above post that says " I will keep the magic with my preamp

+1

In my opinion a high quality preamplifier is paramount to achieving the very best sound /music reproduction from an audio system . Emphasis on "quality "

@ozzy62 

 

Well, put! A good quality preamp can’t hold a candle to an equivalent good quality preamp of today.

My MHDT Orchid tube DAC sounded way worse going straight into my tube amps. The Preamp does a lot of good for the sound.

I think it's about the output voltage of the DAC and the input voltage of the amp.  I plug my Orchid DAC directly into the Decware amp.  I control the volume through software and it sounds good to me.  The Decware amp has its own volume control so I keep trying to find the sweet spot though.   the biggest issue for me is that the output of the flac files vary so much I can't just find a volume level and leave it for multiple albums.

The preamp can either attenuate or boost the DAC signal if its powered or just attenuate it if it's passive.

Using a preamp also would add tone controls if you use them.

 

Make sure you have it professionally reconditioned. Components like capacitors will need to be replaced, pots cleaned… of it isn’t likely to sound very good.

generally, a wholesale change of capacitors is not required. Film capacitors age very well and only require replacement if faulty. Some premium electrolytics may still be going strong after 30 years and their replacement by inferior substitutes may result in performance degradation. Some potentiometers may still be functioning without fault. The key is to ASSESS before you act.

I removed my Parasound Halo 5 from the system and preferred it gone. I'm running a SMSL SU-9 direct into a Van Alstine Vision Set 120 Power Amplifier.

The only thing I'm wondering about it bit stripping as I only run my volume from the DAC at around 50%. 

Anybody here have any thoughts about that? I will buy a good preamp if it means lifting my system to another level. I just found the Parasound to be too dark/muddy compared to going direct from the DAC to the amp.

I have a Lampizator Pacific that I tried three months ago to go direct to my 300B mono amps.  I was shocked at how good it sounded.  As a result, I sold my $20k tube preamp.  I am 100% digital so that made my decision easy.  So, I guess I am in the minority but for me the DAC direct was better.  

@willgolf

+1, I’d like @atmasphere‘s view on this as there seems no role for a pre if the dac has a decent analogue stage and attenuator other than to add distortion.

My Modwright LS36.5 and Sonic Frontiers Line 2SE preamps sit collecting dust. I keep them to spin vinyl; other than that I prefer my DAC direct. Depends on the DAC.

 

@antigrunge2 @willgolf ​@antigrunge2 Echo on you guys being able to state why and when preamp is not needed and without it the system sounds better. It is all about the quality and voltage of the analog output stage of Dac / Preamp. Take my system as an example, in which I feed Schiit Modius into Parasound A23. Both have XLR connection. The XLR (4 volts) connection sounds better than RCA (2 volts) counterpart. Some reviewers reports the same story too. If you have active preamp which allows you to use tubes, discrete transistor or op-amps to boost unity gain and add "color/signature" to the sound, the system with it might sound better. On the other hand, the passive preamp could reduce the dynamic and pace if its impedance is mismatched as mentioned by @antigrunge2. More and more DACs have the preamp section and were improved on their output stage to that end. Leaving it out in this case will shorten the signal path, reduce the distortion and increase the clarity of the sound reproduction. You are definitely not in the minority group.

It seems that the Lampizator Pacific has an onboard preamplifier section. It has DHT tubes providing high voltage via the analog output stage and has a DHT tube cathode follower. so running through a separate preamp is essentially "double" preamps in the signal chain. This type of DAC design could go directly to the power amplifier.Not every DAC has this type of an analog output stage.

Charles

@charles1dad ---and when I get my new Lampi Horizon it is even better, which has already been proven in A/B comparisons.

I think once you have a truly great preamp, there's no going back to passive volume.   I will prove this out soon with my amp I'm having built .   It has two inputs, so I can A/B  a preamp vs DAC direct.   I seriously doubt my DAC driving the amp will sound better than my Zesto Leto.   That is one awesome preamp, incredible sounding piece.   

The word 'always' is often good to avoid, but from my experience, it ain't necessarily so. I had an MSB 'Analog DAC'/volume control going directly into my MSB power amp and the sound was superb. I later got a Herron Audio tube preamp and put that in between the DAC and the power amp, and the sound improved considerably from that....

i have recently been comparing dac thru passive resistor vol control/ thru cj preamp and vintage recapped rotel rc03. it sounds fast thru passive, but compared with thru rotel it sounds thin and the dac direct also seems to lack something

@larsman 

The word ’always’ is often good to avoid, but from my experience, it ain’t necessarily so. I had an MSB ’Analog DAC’/volume control going directly into my MSB power amp and the sound was superb. I later got a Herron Audio tube preamp and put that in between the DAC and the power amp, and the sound improved considerably from that.

Yes, words such as “always”, “never “ and “best” are rarely applicable in audio topic discussions. Far too many variables exist to make those terms meaningful. I would just say that based on my listening and observations that a “high” quality preamplifier more often than not contributes to improved sound quality.

In a situation such as @willgolf’s I can see this as an exception to my generally speaking scenarios. The Lampizator Horizon exceeding the Pacific DAC is quite the accomplishment. Congratulations @willgolf .

Charles

 normal modern DAC will output at min. 2v RCA or min.4v balanced. That is equal to a normal preamp output. Forgetting weird impedance mismatches for the moment, the only job left for the preamp is attenuation. If the DAC has a good relay based rather than lossy digital attenuator, there is nothing left for the preamp to do other than add distortion. If you do have an impedance mismatch, get a passive attenuator

I run direct and completely agree with this - but how does a passive attenuator correct an impedance mismatch? I thought that the problem with passives was that they do not correct an impedance issue the way active preamps do - even unity gain/buffers only preamps. 

 

@majorc,

you are right, however: a passive avoids the additional lossiness of a digital attenuator. Running the Dac at max output reduces the impact of the mismatch

I use an ifi idsd dac micro which has the option of running in direct mode or 2 options for preamp mode - 1 with 0 gain and 1 with gain - when in preamp mode there volume control nob in enabled - is it safe to assume that that is an analog volume control - and if so serve the same role as a passive?

@majorc 0.0 gain or 0.0 db means the DAC is connected straight to your pre-amp or power amp and is not interrupting or changing the voltage from your source.

-db means the gain has been reduced and +db the gain has increased which will decrease or increase the volume by a such a multiple.

Your Ifi DAC probably has a digital volume control but don't sweat it. Only in a more revealing system would it show wanting. It probably sounds fine.

Some folks pointing to output and on the right track. 

Going direct here to 65 watt rebuilt mono block tube amps with the RME ADI-2.

Never looking back. It's super. Definitely worth a look/listen. 

@majorc 

Analogue, ifi know what they are doing