Will Changing my 100 Watt Tube Amp to a 200 Watt SS Amp Solve My Problem?

Mikey8811, what does it mean exactly to have better control of the speakers? I have heard the term, but I do not fully understand the implications. 

John, I have it set to 18db. I was told that setting is the native setting, and the lower gain settings were attenuated.

matt, I have toyed with this idea. If I were to sell my amp and preamp, and look for a similar quality / age / price solid state pair, I wonder if I would get a better performer? But then again, the ARC tube gear does sound excellent...

Mark

Lak, the amp is plugged into a Shunyata Hydra Talos.

Onhwy61, I played with the gain on the phono stage, and ultimately dropped it a touch.  This amp idea is an extension of the same issue.  I was thinking that if the power amp had more muscle, perhaps the gain on the phono stage and preamp will be just fine.  Perhaps I am asking too much from the 2 preamps, and not enough of the power amp.  What do you think?

Lak, more completely,  the amp is plugged into a Shunyata Hydra Talos, which is plugged into a dedicated outlet which has a dedicated circuit in the breaker, done when I remodeled the house and upgraded the electric service.

After tinkering with the placement of the phonostage and the gain settings, I am suspecting the preamp is the culprit.

Am I wrong in feeling funny about 3 o'clock on the volume to get a rockin' experience? Seems like the high dial position is pushing the ability of the preamp too far.  One would think that my pre and power amp should be a good match though. They are both from the same era, same company, and same price point.

as it is, the sound is excellent, I am just complaint about the noise floor, which could be reduced.

Al,

Indeed I evaluated the system with digital components off completely.  Just curious as this may not be the way I will go, but how would you expect a high end integrated unit to work in this regard?  Something like a $13k Jadis tube integrated with phono stage or a similarly priced Deviate with phono stage?  Would the lack of cabling and assumed synergy between the internal components in such a unit provide a quieter, higher performing system? 

Ha!  Newbie, I love the tube devotion.  I am wondering if I am a fool for considering it.

Do you think my Whest PS .30R is the culprit here?  I can definitely say that my PS Audio DAC does sound quieter than the analog, both driven through the ARC preamp.  I was under the impression that the Whest is quite a capable phono stage, with ample gain and balanced circuitry.  It is definitely a confusing process to determine how components play well together!

Maybe I should sell all of my components and get a used Devialet!

Thank you all.  There are a lot of good info and ideas here.  I am interested in what sdcampbell said about the poor signal to noise ratio.  Perhaps that is worth investigating.  Newbee, I have tried what you suggested, but I think I need to refresh my memory by doing it again.  Saturday Morning is listening time for me, so I'll tackle that in the morning.  By the way, I just listened to some Ella Fitzgerald on vinyl at low volume and it is excellent.  No hiss, no problem.  But that was at a volume level one could have a conversation over...

Update 2.

After the above experiment, I followed the idea that the preamp is actually quiet and that the phono stage is causing the noise.  I lowered the gain on the phono stage from 55 to 50db.  The theory is that I can turn the volume high without much issue on the preamp.  I did this, and indeed, with the lower gain on the Whest, I had to raise the volume quite high to get a lout experience, but I was not maxed out.  Before I played the music, I listened to the noise at full volume, with the newly lowered gain on the phono stage.  The noise was lower, as expected, but not by a huge amount.

I played Miles Davis Kind Of Blue.  I listened to the noise at full volume with nothing playing to familiarize my mind and ears, then I lowered the volume and played the record.  As the needle began to play, I immediately heard a fairly considerable amount of noise.  But this I felt was in the recording, not due to my amplifiers.

The sound was excellent by the way, but that noise is still there a bit.

Then I fired up the PS Audio Perfectwave DAC mkII and played the same track.  I use the balanced connections on the DAC and I also turn the volume to full as I was instructed by some of the aficionados of this product.  The result is that the output is much higher than that of the phono stage, so my volume control on the ARC preamp is far lower, dropping the noise floor even lower.

To finish the comparison of Miles Davis, the noise in the recording that I heard on the vinyl was also there on the digital.

I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these new tests.  Please let me know if I am drawing the proper conclusions.  Perhaps I need a quieter phono stage.  Maybe I do not need a ton of gain.  50db is working, though I am still at the top of the volume control.  If I could have a dead quiet, phono pre with 55 db of gain, that may be the perfect accompaniment to this system, that is, if I am interpreting the experiment properly.

Newbee,

I think it's time to change your handle to old pro!
Ok, so I tried a quick test, I listened as I did before, to the phono stage with the volume all the way up, and then I muted the preamp, removed the IC from the table to the phono stage, and unmated the amp.  The noise was the same.  Changing the gain means pulling the phono stage from the rack, unscrewing a panel, flipping some dip switches, and reassembling, so I cannot do it on the fly.  If the noise is the same at 50db gain setting, with or without the turntable connected, is that conclusive enough?  What is my next step? 

Update,

I tried listening to the noise of the preamp on its own.  I powered on the phono pre, the preamp, and the power amp.  I then put the volume at maximum, with no source playing.  I began with the phono selector on the preamp.  At full volume, the hiss+subtle hum is fully audible at the listening position.  Then I tried the other inputs on the preamp, beginning with the input for the DAC, powered on, no music playing.  Followed by all of the other inputs.  Even at full volume, only the input connected to the phono stage produces the noise.  The other inputs, including the connected DAC input are extremely quiet, even at full volume with my head near the speaker.  I can hear noise, but it is subtle, and my head is near the speaker at full volume!

I tried moving the phono stage to another input, to see if there was a problem in the input circuitry.  This is not the case.  The same noise simply moved over to an aux input, and the phono input went quiet.

Interestingly, but probably inconsequential, is that the unused CD input has a little hum to it at full volume, whereas the other inputs do not.  This is just a little side note.  

So, does this experiment show that the preamp is quiet and the phono stage is noisy?  Or, is it still the preamp somehow, and the higher gain of the phono stage is bringing out the inherent noise in the preamp somehow?

Lastly, I found some tubes that I bought years ago, and never used.  They are NOS 6H23P-EB (Premium) tubes.  http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/6H23n-EB-6922

I was thinking to try them out to see if there is lower noise, but after this experiment, I don't think it will do much, it seems that the culprit is the phono stage.  

What do you think?

Well, I wonder if the Whest is a fine unit, but just doesn't fit well with my system?  Or if it is a fine sounding unit that happens to have a noise floor that I just don't care for.

Any suggestions on a super quiet phono stage?

The Audio Research PH 6 has the same price tag, so conceivably I can sell my Whest and purchase a used PH 6 for about the same price.  58db of gain seems about perfect, as long as it's quiet.  Plus it is a tube model, which should be a nice thing to fit in with the 2 other ARC tube amps in my system.  But is it quieter than the Whest, that is the question.  

Thank you Newbee & Almarg.  I really value your input and time.  If you find yourself in south Florida, you are invited for a listen and a drink!

I sent a note to Whest to see if they can help me to determine if my unit is working as it should.

To be fair, I am nitpicking a bit here.  In truth, at normal listening levels of anything under 90db, the analog sounds perfect.  It's only when I am rockin out at levels of 93db and higher that I can allow myself to be slightly annoyed by the noise, and that is only during quiet passages or between tracks.

Nitpicking or not, this has been an educational experience thus far. I learned my amp and preamp are just fine!  I love the sound from them, and I am pleased that switching to solid state is off the table.

It would be interesting to audition an ARC PH6 or a similarly priced alternative to the Whest, just for the sake of comparison, but we will see what Whest says first.

I started a new thread to explore the Parasound vs Whest with the Lyra Delos...

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/parasound-halo-jc-3-vs-whest-ps-30r-for-the-lyra-delos

Ah, bummer. Two JC's, two different designers. But both distinguished!

Any thoughts on the Parasound Halo JC 3 phono preamplifier?  It has the balanced outputs that I want to keep and 68db of gain, which would allow me to avoid being at the top of the volume control.  I believe it is designed by the same designer as my cartridge, so that may be a plus.  Do you think it may be quieter than the Whest?