Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

For readers who are unfamiliar with the build of the EMT 927, this article is a great read. There are very few turntables that approach the engineering & build quality of this deck, it makes many modern "superdecks" look like toys..
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=jsn2lbqo73mkpbr1qviqf0hca4&topic=7793.0

08-18-13: Richardkrebs
I totally agree with your assessment of the SP10 MK3. However this is, IMO not a result of its design, the use of a servo, or DD. I believe it is the way it is built. The tension, greyness and lack of ebb and flow, can be significantly mitigated.

I dont agree with this comment. I hear a dissembling of musical flow and timing from the SP10's including the ones you have rebuilt.
If we compare direct drives on their own, the Kenwood L07D and SP10 sound quite different in terms of musical flow and timing. The SP10mk3 will measure better than the L07D because the L07D error correction servos only work when the speed error is quite large. The L07D relies on inertia to minimise tiny speed inaccuracies, whereas the SP10mk3 servos are much more aggressive.
The differences in the implementation of servos and their operating parameters are clearly discernible in the musical presentation of these 2 DD's which are quite different.
The Technics SP10's in particular dissemble the music, musical timing and expression becomes compartmentalised and lacks flow. Jean Nantais has expressed the same view, he prefers the softer servos as used in the Sony DD's to the SP10.
From my listening experiences neither of these DD's would compete with the top Micro Seiki's that I have heard in the areas of musical flow and coherence. The Gestalt of the music is lost with these DD's compared to a well implemented inertia driven system.
It may well be that if one has lived with Direct Drives with the intrinsic servo jitter for 30 years or so it is possible ones ear does not detect these issues the way that others do.
By the way, in response to your posts in the ET2 thread, I have now heard the full krebsupgrade and the SP10 in question sounds more woolly and ill defined than the earlier mule version of the exact same deck.

08-18-13: Lewm
Mosin, Would you therefore dismiss any turntable with a light weight platter (and therefore a rather low moment of inertia) as a "contender", just on that basis alone? And if so, what is your cut-off point for "acceptable" inertia, in terms of platter mass?
The 927 appears to have a "heavy" platter compared to that of other well loved idlers, but not in the league with some of the monster belt-drive platters I have seen, e.g., the Walker lead platter.

This is misrepresenting the 927. Although its platter is only 5kg the 16" diameter and weight distribution results in inertia similar to much much heavier platters ( I think 50kg equivalent has been suggested ). This may be a good thing, attaining high inertia but keeping mass and hence energy storage within the platter low.
The cutting lathes using the much vaunted Technics SP02 DD motor ( which in power and torque and poles is vastly superior to the SP10mk3 motor ) still used this flywheel effect as well with 60lb platters used in the cutting process despite the power and "servo" speed control.
Good turntable designs are very much a 'sum of the parts' - you cannot just ascribe a specific attribute such as what is the minimum platter mass required, because the answer will always be - that depends.... on the bearing, energy storage considerations, platter material, speed control etc etc
It's a bit like - I need to solve a problem, can I borrow Einsteins brain. It doesn't work. Why. His brain doesn't work without the cardiovascular system which you didn't specify in your request. Ok I got the rest now and it still doesn't work. Why. Because he likes a good walk and breakfast to get the juices flowing.

Dkarmeli
I use the Micro as a reference simply because more people are familiar with these. I personally use the original Final Audio Parthenon VTT1/VSM2 with VDS17 Stabiliser & VM7 Mat which as you mention has a focus on unwanted energy dissipation from the record groove in its design goals along with a high inertia solution for speed stability. What differentiates it from the top Micro's and is clearly audible is the more sophisticated speed control which utilises sine & cosine wave generators for stability with the huge AC motor, variable torque to minimise motor noise, an inverted bearing design and the energy control paths are quite sophisticated even by todays standards, culminating in the stabiliser/mat/platter/bearing assembly and arm pod both terminated into a slab of SPZ ( superplastic zinc alloy ) that when excited grain slides at a molecular level. This results in an extremely rigid closed loop system between arm and platter but ensures energy is not transmitted from one to the other.

The Parthenon was an assault but didn't get all the way there, too many gimmicks. Its not only mass here, ...

Which version are you referring to here. The later version - see pic here http://www.damoka.net/product_pages/analog/ as used by Lamm in one of their shows did not use the SPZ base and has a smaller and less substantial bearing pillar & subplatter assembly and is not as good as the original.

For all you posters discussing turntable speed accuracy It is not possible to measure wow & flutter using a test record.

If you use a rotary function generator to measure the turntable performance directly off the platter, the results will be more accurate than any test record.

For an explanation from someone who actually has a degree in physics and acoustical engineering - Bruce Thigpen of Eminent Technology.

Here is Bruces explanation from his Eminent Technology website.

Bruce has many patents and inventions including his unique air bearing tonearm, rotary subwoofer, vacuum platter as implenmented by SOTA, and many others.

 

Bruce Thigpen -

Reviewers have incorrectly attributed wow and flutter to the turntable. Since the advent of the belt drive turntable, wow and flutter has been purely a function of tonearm geometry, the phono cartridge compliance with the elastomeric damping, and surface irregularities in the LP. In our own lab we have measured many high quality turntables using a rotary function generator directly connected to the platters of the turntables.

The measured results are usually an order of magnitude better than the results using a tonearm and test record (conventional wow and flutter method). Further proof exists if you take two tonearms, one straight line and one pivoted and mount them both on the same turntable. The straight line tonearm will give a wow and flutter reading with the same cartridge/test record of about 2/3 to 1⁄2that of the pivoted arm (.03% < .07% to .05%). This is because the straight line tonearm has a geometry advantage and lateral motion does not result in stylus longitudinal motion along the groove of the record.

Another proof is to take two different cartridges, one high compliance and one low compliance, and take measurements with both using the same turntable and tonearm. The reading of wow and flutter will be different. All wow and flutter readings are higher than the rotational consistency of the turntable.

The Technics like is a Porch 911 and your heavy weigths units that several of you are in love with are like a Linconl Capri or a Bodeville or Cadillac De Ville.

Wrong, the Technics is a lot more reliable than a Porsche 911 and requires far less maintenance.

I don't buy hifi on looks, or theory, I buy based on listening.

I've had the SP10mk3 in the house - got offered one for free from the widow of an old friend. Passed it on. Nice deck but only 2nd place in this house. Simply doesn't have the clarity that my reference has.

 

 

The 927 is just hilariously ahead of all this. Way way way more resolution and dynamics. It is a proper full range, accurate, limitless sound. I don’t know which TT can better it, yet. May be a Kondo Ginga? 

@pani 

As a matter of interest the Kondo Ginga is a cheap copy of the Final Audio VTT1 built in the 70's which has been my reference TT for the past 30+ years. As you have found with the Technics SP10mk3 vs the 927, the Final is in another league.

Does not mean that DD is bad, it just means the the Final is exceptional.

David Karmeli has the EMT 927, along with American Sound AS2000, Micro Seiki 8000's, Goldmund Reference and SP10mk3. He describes the Technics as a toy in comparison to the others.

@mijostyn 

A turntable does not have timing or pace for that matter. 

Actually it does. Because as you said

A turntable just spins at 33.33 rpm as quietly and accurately as possible. A great turntable has no sound of it's own. 

But they don't. And there's the rub. Thats why they all sound different.

Instability in TT's will destroy the timing as recorded.

 

@mijostyn 

 

 idler drives ALWAY rumble more than any other drive type. and if you had corrected subwoofers you would know that. 

That may be true but there are many other aspects that contribute to TT performance. I refurbished a Garrard 301 for a second system - it blew away the Platine Verdier I was using as a second deck. It also blew away an SME 20. Better timing.

As an aside an associate has a Denon RCP53C idler. He is a professional DJ.

The Denon idler blows off the DD Technics he uses - both as a home audio front end and DJ'ing. It's start and stop time is phenomenal - the best I've seen from any deck - and I've seen a lot.

@brunorivademar 

All i’m saying is that with regards to that particular measurement idlers seem to have an advantage because of higher revving motors and thus less motor cogging. 

I have refurbished a few Garrards. I also have a vintage Exclusive broadcast idler.

My reference TT for the past 30 odd years is a thread drive with 26kg platter and motor that dwarfs most  TT's. The large AC motor is driven off of a precision sine and cosine wave generator and separate power amplifier. It is superior to the idlers by some margin.

On the other hand I had a Platine Verdier for a while as a second TT - the idlers easily surpass the Verdier. I swapped my reference TT motor drive over to the Verdier and voila - there's the problem - pee wee motor.

Personally I believe the idler "sound" is not the idler drive itself - in my opinion it is the big AC motor drive that is creating that "drive". The removal of a rubber belt also contributes, but I think the big AC motor is the key.

The weakness in the Thorens 124 is the rubber belt.

The problem with modern TT's is that nobody produces quality AC motors any more. Both my reference TT and the Exclusive idler have AC motors the size of a fist - and they are dead silent - even with my ear right next to the motor spindle.

Finally when AC motors self correct for any lag, they do so in a sinusoidal fashion - DC motors when speed corrected do so in a saw tooth -  in other words speed recovery on AC motors is smoother and more benign.

@pani

I pretty much agree with your descriptions of the sound of the TT’s.

As far as the Final goes, the original, which I have, was made using a super expensive material called superplastic zinc alloy ( SPZ ). This material was developed in Japan in the 1970’s for earthquake proofing buildings - it is a metal like material that has superplasticity at room temperature and any vibration between 10hz and 100hz is absorbed and dissipated by grain sliding within the material molecular structure - in other words vibrations at these frequencies disappear. The material is no longer available, it was too expensive to produce.You can hear the benefit - this turntable has the least smearing of notes of any TT that I have heard.

Here’s the family history I posted on youtube

The second generation ( silver chassis ) has a lesser bearing and aluminium chassis instead of the SPZ. The Kondo is better than the second generation but not as good as the original. On my VTT1 ( 2nd TT in the video with the FR64S attached ) the motor is driven off of a separate power amplifier that is driven off the sine/cosine wave generator sitting next to the motor.

 

 

 

@pani 

Yes I plan to later this year - I'm in the process of moving.