The "so called" ideal preamp gain range is from 10:00 to 2:00, You are under 3:00 so just a bit over. I wouldn't worry about it.
Why the volume drop for this .5mv cartridge
This is somewhat related to the "Do I need a SUT" thread, but I didn't want to muddy that.
I've got two cartridges: an Ortofon 2M Black; a Grado Statement Master 1. The first is MM with 5mv output, the second is MI with .5mv output.
My phono pre is a Rogue Audio Triton, with 40db, 55db, 60db, and 65db gain settings. That feeds a Schiit Ragnarok which feeds some KEF LS50s. The Ragnarok appears to have a linear volume control.
I have the phono pre's gain set for 40db with the Ortofon, and the ideal listening volume is with the Ragnarok's volume control set to "12:00". With the Grado, I have the gain set for 65db and to match the output volume of the Ortofon for the same material, I've got to set the Ragnarok's volume just short of "3:00".
Robert Harley's "Taking the Guesswork out of Phonostage Gain" offers an algorithm that puts the ideal gain (for 1v output) for the Ortofon at 46db and for the Grado, 66db.
The "KAB PHONO PREAMP PARAMETER COMPUTER" puts the gain for the Ortofon and Grado at 36 and 56, respectfully.
It seems like Harley's offering better matches what's going on in my system, as 55db is just too low for the Grado and my amp.
To my naive mind, I would think that if I have the phono pre's gains matched to the output of the cartridges, I should have the same output volume to the Ragnarok, and thus the same volume level settings from the amp. Capacitance and resistance loading is the same for both (50pf and 47k).
Am I missing something? This is relevant as I prefer the Grado, but I'm just about out of headroom with that amp. I'm wondering what's wrong - my Grado, my phono pre, the Ragnarok, or my thinking. Or some combination thereof.
I don't recall that the output volume difference was this great on the Sphinx that the Ragnarok replaced, but I may not be remembering correctly (probably 18 months ago). The Rag's input impedance is 10k, and is set to the highest output gain (26db).
I've got two cartridges: an Ortofon 2M Black; a Grado Statement Master 1. The first is MM with 5mv output, the second is MI with .5mv output.
My phono pre is a Rogue Audio Triton, with 40db, 55db, 60db, and 65db gain settings. That feeds a Schiit Ragnarok which feeds some KEF LS50s. The Ragnarok appears to have a linear volume control.
I have the phono pre's gain set for 40db with the Ortofon, and the ideal listening volume is with the Ragnarok's volume control set to "12:00". With the Grado, I have the gain set for 65db and to match the output volume of the Ortofon for the same material, I've got to set the Ragnarok's volume just short of "3:00".
Robert Harley's "Taking the Guesswork out of Phonostage Gain" offers an algorithm that puts the ideal gain (for 1v output) for the Ortofon at 46db and for the Grado, 66db.
The "KAB PHONO PREAMP PARAMETER COMPUTER" puts the gain for the Ortofon and Grado at 36 and 56, respectfully.
It seems like Harley's offering better matches what's going on in my system, as 55db is just too low for the Grado and my amp.
To my naive mind, I would think that if I have the phono pre's gains matched to the output of the cartridges, I should have the same output volume to the Ragnarok, and thus the same volume level settings from the amp. Capacitance and resistance loading is the same for both (50pf and 47k).
Am I missing something? This is relevant as I prefer the Grado, but I'm just about out of headroom with that amp. I'm wondering what's wrong - my Grado, my phono pre, the Ragnarok, or my thinking. Or some combination thereof.
I don't recall that the output volume difference was this great on the Sphinx that the Ragnarok replaced, but I may not be remembering correctly (probably 18 months ago). The Rag's input impedance is 10k, and is set to the highest output gain (26db).
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Excellent comments by Folkfreak, with which I agree entirely. Some further comments: 1)There are two ways in which cartridge output ratings can be defined, and unfortunately manufacturers usually do not indicate which one their spec is based on. See my post dated 7-4-2012 in this thread. The result can be a 3 db specification difference even for cartridges which in fact provide identical output voltages. And in addition, as Folkfreak indicated I wouldn’t count on such specs being particularly accurate either. 2)The reason for the differing gain recommendations you mentioned is that the KAB calculator indicates the gain required to boost a cartridge’s rated output to only 325 mv, while as you indicated Harley’s recommendation is based on boosting the cartridge’s rated output to 1 volt. 1 volt is 10 db more than 325 mv, which corresponds precisely to the difference between the two recommendations. 3)Both Stereophile and Soundstage measured the sensitivity of the LS50 as being about 84.5 db at 1 meter, for an input of 2.83 volts. In much of the mid-bass region, where lots of energy is typically required, the impedance of the speaker is not much more than 4 ohms. 2.83 volts into 4 ohms is 2 watts, which is 3 db more than 1 watt, so in that region the efficiency of the speaker is not much more than 81.5 db/1 watt/1 meter. In other words, very low. 4)Given also that the amp’s 4 ohm power rating of 100 watts corresponds exactly to the upper limit of KEF’s recommended range of amplifier power, it seems clear that the root cause of the issue, to the extent that it is an issue, is the Ragnarok’s overall gain of 26 db, which is very low for an integrated amp. Regards, -- Al |
Thanks all. I'm happy keeping the amp with the range I described - just trying to understand the difference between the phono pre out for the different cartridges, which I assumed would be normalized with the appropriate gain setting. @folkfreak - I'm not understanding your comment that the Ragnarok's pre wants to see 1v incoming. I would expect the phono-pre to do that, with the gain adjusted per Harley's calculations. I'm understanding from your post that there's enough variance in real cartridge output from spec that it may be that 65db really isn't enough for the Grado - e.g. perhaps the Grado is putting out .3 or .4. @almarg - I've read the thread you referenced - thanks for that. I believe that my Grado is putting out .5mv @ 5cm/sec. While I can't find the "5cm/sec" clarification for my model, the latest model is using that qualifier, so I'll assume the same for mine. You lost me on "4" though. Although the Ragnarok is capable of putting out 100w, 26db of gain might be too low? I looked at Schiit's Vidar power amp, which puts 200w into 4 ohms, and that's listed as putting out 27db. Parasound's Halo Integrated says 28db for 240w into 4 ohms. |
@tlainhart 1V is the rated input to drive the Ragnarok to full output - note how in the specs here they are all referenced to 1V input. As I noted you are in effect using a passive pre into the 26dB power amp stage so getting no real preamp gain http://www.schiit.com/products/ragnarok |
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