Why do people -- i.e., audiophiles -- "hate" or dislike McIntosh? It's an interesting question. I gave it some thought and came up with three reasons:
1. McIntosh is, by repute, the brand for doctors and lawyers -- i.e., presumably well-to-do people who just want fancy, expensive, nice-looking equipment for their living rooms and dens, without really knowing anything about high-end audio. Thus, knowledgable audiophiles will look down on such unknowledgable buyers. (Let me stress that I don't think this is a good reason -- but it is a reason!)
2. McIntosh amps use older, unfashionable technologies -- primarily autoformers. They are not, in any technical sense, state-of-the-art. Thus, knowledgable audiophiles, who appreciate the latest technical advances in the audio arts, disdain McIntosh equipment as stuck in the past.
3. McIntosh amps do not have a "hi-fi" sound. To audiophiles searching for a hyper-detailed presentation, they may seem "veiled" or rounded off. This may be particularly true for audiophiles who primarily listen to amplified music.
I should add, in the interest of full disclosure, that I have owned and enjoyed an MC402 power amp for over a dozen years. I've changed speakers, sources, power cords and cabling during that time, but I've never seen any reason to get a new amp. I listen to about 80% classical and 20% hard rock, and I find the MC402 does everything I want.
gg107, Your first reason may have been true in the past, but I think it hasn't been so in a long time. Number two is right on; they are looked at as old fashioned by some audiophiles who are dazzled by the latest technological twists. Finally, they are as you say voiced (as all amps are) in a certain way that doesn't appeal to all listeners, although that voicing, in their SS gear has changed over the years. I also think that their brand has been hurt somewhat in the minds of audiophiles who have no real experience with them by parrots who perpetually compare them to Harley Davidson and Rolex. That's really just a lot of nonsense, and I think is strikes a positive note to some who like to buy American (HarleyDavidson) and others who value good resale (Rolex)
I don't think it's hate maybe confusion? Many in the mid fi and casual audiophiles/music lovers segment view McIntosh as the "holy grail" of amplifiers. IMO they produce some great gear the MC452 and C22MK3 provide great value/sound for 2nd hand gear but are not considered close to being SOTA. If the MAC "fanboys" would admit they purchase MAC for resale value and aesthetics over sound quality the brand would become much less polarizing.
"If the MAC "fanboys" would admit they purchase MAC for resale value and aesthetics over sound quality the brand would become much less polarizing." Another stupid comment that is just repeating what others have wrongly said many times before. "SOTA" sound is in the ear of the listener, no matter what the box it comes from looks like, or what the cost was. There are actually many people dayglow who buy Mac gear because they like the way it sounds.
@roxy54 , Let me start by saying that I don’t hate McIntosh. There’s a lot to say for McIntosh:
The good: All of the high-end owes a debt of gratitude to McIntosh. In the early days of “HiFi”, when that meant something, they toured and demonstrated the consistent high quality of there products with objective measurements. Perhaps, some other manufacturer would have filled the void, but just as likely there might have been a string of bad actors promising quality and delivering junk, as did eventually happen, requiring the government to step in. Had consumers not had McIntosh to lay the foundation and raise the bar, consumer confidence in the industry might have been so compromised that other start ups never had a chance to start up. That despite different ownerships the quality of their gear has wavered less than many of same early competitors that had similar fates. That despite the passing of many, many years consumers can hold hope that their purchases can still be maintained on a level not found anywhere else in the industry. That they maintained a classic handsome albeit masculine appearance without trendy changes had allowed their customers add, change and upgrade in a consistent way, all the while maintaining the real value of their customer’s purchases. Some of their gear ( FM tuners come to mind) were truly amongst the best in their time. The bad: To myself and apparently to others as well, the house sound is disappointing. FWIW, IMHO, McIntosh gear sounds flat, lacking dimensionality, weak in dynamic contrasts, and dulls transients, Yes, I’ve heard a lot of different Mc gear over the years, to my ears the signature is quite prevalent.
The Ugly; This post was in response to the earlier query on this very subject. The use of autoformers in ss amps. There is no need for this extra stage in modern ss amps. In the early days pre 1970’s transistors like tubes were not up to handling the stress of differing impedance parameters. In order to preserve the reliability of these transistors McIntosh resorted to the similar tricks they had long used on their tube gear; optimize the output through tap options. It worked, unlike other transistor amps of these earlier times, the transistors didn’t self destruct. Later on, since about the 1970’s transistors developed to the point where they became the most durable of output devices. Please note that the following is presented from a somewhat academic perspective, in practice there are other variables to consider, actual performance will vary. Still, the matter at hand still applies. These later transistors in the right application could not only handle various loads without worry, they could double down or halve up with impedance and the corresponding sensitivity of typical dynamic loudspeakers. Something that isn’t done the same way as they do within the limitations of a tap. When McIntosh claims that their autoformers ss amps provide maximum output into all loads, understand that’s the power output into a standard 8 Ohm load into all loads within the tap. Some other ss amplifiers without the taps that come with autoformers provide the power output as demanded from the speakers impedance and corresponding sensitivity. For example such an amplifier standard rated output of 100 Watts into 8 Ohms will output 200 Watts into 4 ohms as the sensitivity of the speaker decreases by 3 dB with the impedance drop . So the maximum 8 Ohm power is actually increased as needed. This maintains greater frequency linearity at high output levels. Again, there are other variables, and the actual output of either type of amplifier might stray from such a limited perspective. Having an amplifier go through an unnecessary stage such as autoformers can’t be good. Perhaps McIntosh does it to keep costs down on expensive cooling heat sinks or more expensive power supplies and still maintain reliability, or perhaps they’re stuck on a novel yet traditional (for them) marketing strategy? I don’t know. But, I’ve yet to see a convincing argument for autoformers in modern day ss amplifiers.
BTW, although you might be tired of hearing about the oft referenced comparison to Harley, Rolex, etc., those comparisons are not without merit. These brands have much in common. They are all marketed to the same economic demographic, they all have iconic presentations of look, sound, etc, that are readily recognized beyond the scope of the enthusiasts audience, all live to some degree more on their legacy reputation than their current state of the art performance innovation. On the other hand I can appreciate the disdain for automatic categorization. I’m all too aware of enthusiasts search for the next great thing, and under appreciating the tried and true, I’ve never owned them, but Vandersteen 2’s comes to mind. IHO, the answer to the question of: “what is quality?” is enduring appreciation.
To the extent there is any hate it is more like the way people "hate" Tom Cruise. Rolex. Tekton. Trump. Porsche. Some people simply do not know how to relate to inordinate success. Can't handle it. Resent it.
Tom Cruise is a fine actor. There are better, but he is pretty darn good. Rolex really is a fine watch. The fact there are better in no way detracts from the excellence of a Rolex. People just hate that Rolex and Cruise so dominate the market. Trump, well okay bad choice there are none better than Trump. And Porsche. But that only goes to prove the rule: they are hated for their excellence. Almost impossible to be truly exceptional at anything and not wind up with some small segment just can't handle exceptionalism.
Unsound, You made some good points and no hard feelings. I have owned several Macs, MC300 for about 5 years, a MC2105 for about 45 years interestingly, a MC402 for a few short months. I also had a non autoformer Mac for a very short time that I didn't like at all. I just didn't really like the sound of either of those as much as my somewhat modified MC2105, so I really don't have blinders on about Mac gear. That said, I also owned a wonderful ANK 300b Anniversary amp for 5 years, and I have to be honest and say that the MC2105 was not embarrassed in its company. Same for a Pass Labs 250.5 which sounded terrible in comparison to the MC2105 to my ears. I also think that you may be right in thinking that part of the reason that they stay with the autoformer technology is that it is a strong part of their identity. Thanks for your thoughts, John
So many amps. So how many do AB testing? Unsound’s above comments are amazing. Curious about your amp preferences.
but what about mac tubes vs their ss. Preferences? they do well with ss but say it sounds tubey. So get the damn tubes. Tubes would seem better. Preamps are better with tubes.
As for alternatives...I'm a Mc owner and I need more power - I have MC 302 SS.
I'm also a former artillery guy and I can tell you I like things loud :)
I listen to rock, jazz and blues and my thoughts have been what's the right upgrade path.
I have a budget too! And then of course there's the synergy with the rest of the system.
So I've been considering - Moon by Simaudio.
In the end each one of us has biases and preferences and by listening we can determine if what sounds different is valued. Notice I avoided using better. I've heard different speakers change how an amp and music sound and depending on the type of music I can even appreciate if cost wasn't an object having more than 1 system.
Who let out the secret that us McIntosh owners only bought their stuff because of resale value and it’s design?! Crap!! Next thing you will find out that we actually don’t even turn the components on to listen to music. We just look at figuring out to buy more of their gear to keep the resale value up. Foiled again!!
—Ninety Minutes with McIntosh and Other Components— McIntosh has an aura around the brand that screams, “look everybody, I’m a rich and arrogant asshole!” I liken McIntosh buyers to people who buy $300,000 Lamborghinis when they live in New Jersey - or any other place where they get a lot of snow. The sound of a McIntosh amplifier is okay. At just over $18,000 (Canadian dollars), an audio salesperson was trying to get me set up with a McIntosh amp/pre-amp and the CD player to match (price for CD player unknown). I didn’t love or hate the look of the gear. At $18,000 on sale, they had better sound better than my Bryston amp/pre-amp. Unfortunately, they didn’t come close to the way my Bryston components drive my B & W 802s. More on that in a bit. I looked over at a much less expensive set-up. I told my friend/salesperson I wanted to compare the heavyweight Rotel amp/pre-amp and Arcam CD player they had set up already to the McIntosh components. I had him hook up the McIntosh first, and then onto the Rotel/Arcam mix. He had the B &W 802 D4 Reference floor standers handy. I asked him if we could audition both sets of components on the B & W speakers. It was a miserably rainy day with little foot traffic, so he obliged my request. I own the same B & W speakers, so I am familiar with their plus and minus nuances. At around $18,000 Canadian, I have found the B & Ws to be well worth the money. I scored a fantastic deal on them two years ago. A special thanks to my friend who works at our city’s largest high-end audio dealer. My friend was certain the McIntosh gear was going to knock me off my feet, leaving me impressed with the great sound. All I can say is that I would put my Bryston amp/pre-amp and CD player up against the McIntosh products any time. The sound went as loud as you would ever want, and the lower end sounded fantastic. The midrange and high end was lacking. I know it wasn’t the speakers, as owning a pair, I know the sound really well. Then my salesman friend hooked the B & W 802s up to the Rotel and Arcam set-up. At one quarter of the price, I can honestly say that this mix of components sounded excellent. The Rotel and Arcam components were all set up to use balanced cables. Both the Rotel and Arcam had decent DACs. If you are on a moderate budget, buy the Rotel amp/pre-amp for sure. I liked the sound of the Arcam CD player a lot. So, again, if you are budget conscious, I would consider the CD player too. I wish I had written down all of the models I auditioned. I didn’t, but the Rotel amp was huge with it’s matching pre-amp. It had to weigh close to 50 kgs. All I know is that there have to be a lot of happy Rotel and Arcam owners out there. In all fairness, someone buying the Rotel or Arcam components probably don’t have a good pair of B & W floorstanders. My audio dealer sells a lot of Monitor Audio speakers. He says there is an excellent money spent to sound achieved ratio (his words, not mine). I’m not sure what model they were, but for around $4500, the Monitor Audio speakers would be on my list if I needed a second stereo. If I had a mid-range budget, I would strongly consider buying a pair. My overall conclusion to this 90 minute listening session is, components with the most well known names often don’t live up to their reputations.
Wow!!!. Totally unbelievable. Thank God we have a crap load of different audio manufacturers. Some fantastic some great. Mcintosh have a serious reputation in the hi end audio world for building great sounding and long lasting audio gear which I personally appreciate. I got my money worth. Regardless what negative feedback anyone has to say about mcintosh their name reputation and long term is priceless. Well I am off to follow the yellow brick rd and asked the mighty wizard for a brain!!
I liken McIntosh buyers to people who buy $300,000 Lamborghinis when they live in New Jersey - or any other place where they get a lot of snow.
A perpetual stage of smugness. I feel sorry for people that attack others based on what they like and do not like. It shows an emotional immaturity and a need to be “different” through proof of physical possessions. It has manifested into the role of the internet “gate keeper” in an attempt to elevate their own decisions in life as superior to others. Sad. Later.
People love to hate everything these days. That's why. For me - sound quality + appearance + value = McIntosh. I started my McIntosh journey about a decade ago and I haven't looked back.
I fell in love with McIntosh equipment the 1st time I heard them back in 1974. I wasn't able to afford anything until 2004. I will never buy any other amplifier. The look great, they sound great, and they hold their value.
local tech owns a bunch of vintage mac gear. his system sounds (and looks) exquisite. i've never owned any and probably won't - i've had the opportunity to purchase some of the stuff but even putting the price to the side, the vintage merry go round just isn't for me anymore.
local dealer has the new big boy macs set up all pretty in their hifi room and they look very cool and "serious", but at the end of the day i don't make doctor money, and if i did, there are other brands i'm more interested in. but i'm with you, i don't get the hate - definitely a rolex/harley vibe attached to the brand but all of them are iconic for a reason
I have read that having a McIntosh repaired can be a crap shoot. Sometimes it will come back with shoddy work being done depending on who benched it. But to be fair that could happen with other brands. I also think that when a brand is purchased by a larger conglomerate profit is the goal not the sound quality, I also like to speak with ownership when I have a problem that is why I have PS Audio and Pass Labs gear. When it comes to service after the purchase I would challenge anyone to name two other companies in the industry that do a better job.
McIntosh must be doing something right. I reckon they sell more high end audio equipment than any other manufacturer out there. I collect wine as another hobby - this reminds me of the wine boards where the “cognoscenti” will trash a successful wine producer for nothing more than the wine being successful and more mass produced than some obscure label. Buy what you like and like what you buy!
Dumb question, there isn't an amp mfg out there that doesn't admire McIntosh's longevity, contributions to the industry and annual unit sales, people like what they have and if it isn't McIntosh would you expect them to say how good they are?
Way back in my College Park days, to be among the gods of stereo, McIntosh driving 901 Bose was Nirvana....so many thought. The people I met then, are much the same as today: to really be impressed, the volume must be high with Mc., and especially with Bose. By the late 70s, lots of reading, listening and experiencing Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, AR, Quad, even Dynaco, among others, began a journey that continues.
@campaigner82 I appreciate your thoughts. A couple of of questions: 1) Were the B&W speakers used in the listening session the D’4’s or D3’s? You stated D4 but you also stated you had purchased them 2 years ago. 2) Also, when hooked up to the McIntosh, were they using mono blocks or a stereo amp? 3) which Bryston amp are you using now?
I'm a McIntosh owner and have been for 30 years. When I was younger and would visit various hi fi shops, I would honestly be reluctant to tell the salesperson that I had McIntosh gear (if they were not a McIntosh dealer). There was plenty of perceived distain from salespersons when announcing I had Mc gear.
Also, I distinctly remember that one shop in my area would politely run down my McIntosh pieces as being inferior "high end" gear. That all changed when they became a McIntosh dealer. Then, I had really cool gear. Hmmm...interesting behavior.
Gotta comment on the Rotel and Arcam setup mentioned above. Certainly a lot of bang for the buck there and I've been impressed with my Arcam (rebadged as JBL SDA-2200) power amps. Made in China, but they sound good. There is a lot of great sounding gear that is way less expensive than McIntosh. That for sure is fact.
One of my vintage pieces is a MC250. 50x2 solid state amp. 20-30 years ago, that was a horrible amplifier to most people. Colored, way too warm sounding, House Sound McIntosh; yuk. Similar to a boat anchor except heavier. You couldn't give 'em away. Now, try finding a nice one for less than $1,000. Good luck. I've really enjoyed the MC250 for over 30 years now and still is a favorite to fire up. Still sounds great to my old ears and no issues ever.
I've heard a lot of very nice sounding, high end systems over the years. I've never said once that "that system sounds terrible". All this stuff sounds fantastic if it's set up correctly in a good room. Every system has it's pluses and minuses, but overall, there is a lot of incredible equipment made by many manufacturers. We all have choices on what to buy and that's a good thing.
This year, I replaced almost my entire system and retired the old McIntosh pieces. While I had nearly a million choices, I replaced all the electronics with new McIntosh. I overpaid for everything as compared to what one can source from other brands (see the Rotel / Arcam post again).
I don't have a $300,000 Lambo, don't live in NJ, am not a doctor or lawyer and no one will ever see my system in my living room. We do get a lot of snow though. I simply like what I like and to me, my system is a ton of enjoyment. That's what's most important at this stage of my life.
I have been selling audio for a long time now. I sold a lot of Mac back in the day, not so much anymore don't know why. I don't think there is any piece of equipment ever manufactured that does not have it's haters. sometimes it seems like people bash other peoples equipment in an attempt to make there's sound better. The important thing is not what other people think about your equipment but what you think about your equipment. If haters had any credibility most people would never buy anything.
I’ve covered the globe with different brands of equipment as I’m sure most of you have. Let’s cut to the chase because I use to be negative like some of the S… Starters here. At the end of the day, it’s big company VS little company. If you have had the opportunity to try different McIntosh amplifiers like myself you will notice that they all sound different. Some are more drastic than others. If you have ever had the experience to listen to the McIntosh MC2301 Tube Monoblock Amplifiers with your choice of components, you will sing a different tune about them. They are incredible and most audiophiles can’t argue that they are not. It is one of the best piece of equipment that they have ever made. I didn’t like any of their preamps meshing with the Monoblock amplifiers so I am using a Cary Audio SLP05 Preamp with the Ultimate Upgrade, Cardis wiring, and tube rolled. I have the sound I was looking for with my Wilson Audio Maxx 2 speakers. Best of luck to you chaps!
I fail to understand why anyone would choose Mac over Boulder....or even Krell. The only answer that makes sense is they haven't experienced what those brands can do, Boulder especially.
Folks really truly have issues especially when politics come to play. They don’t do their homework, they just talk. I’m sure they also took place in the negative notion of Facebook, Twitter, etch and was highly upset that the system was shut down and they couldn’t rant, lol. I’m truly happy I don’t live in their bubble because if the world was the same, it would definitely be boring. As one said, some call themselves an audiophile and some truly have no real experience with some of the McIntosh products. They take their hatred and scramble it all together and label the company. By the way, I use different and the best products as I relate to how it sounds TO ME, lol. Here are some suggestions for all of the haters. 1. Enjoy whatever components you own. 2. Stop trying to convince anyone to join your bandwagon 3. stop hating the big company just because you like the little company. (I dab in both and don’t Discriminate) 4. Do your homework before you judge a product and the company as a whole. That goes for any company, not just McIntosh. 5. If you believe that all of these other companies got into the audio game not for profit, you have just displayed how much of a ignorant you have become and it’s ashamed. Don’t hate the player, hate the game as they say.6. Please find another site as I’m sure that Audiogon intended this site to be helpful to buyers especially new ones. There, I said what some of you are thinking and my comments doesn’t pertain to this thread alone. It pertains to others as well.
both Krell and Boulder make incredible products. But from experience, in order for Krell to sound its best, you definitely have to use other Krell products that uses the Cast Cabling. It is truly remarkable with that connection. The downside is that some of the Krell products are not as reliable.. sure they can be fixed but damn, that’s a lot of weight to lug around. Even to George Meyers or to Krell directly. Shute to suffer outer shell scratches. Love the product though. My last Krell was the 402e Evolution. Believe it or not it gets hotter than my McIntosh MC2301 tube Monoblock amplifiers. I had many high end Krell amplifiers in the past. As for Boulder, the 2150 and the 2160 didn’t mend well with my speakers. I chose my speakers before my amplifiers. They sounded a bit thin and too bright on the top end with the Maxx 2’s. They do sound better with the Alex V speakers as the tweeter is much softer then the Maxx 2. The other is that they will suck a lot of power and really heat up your listening area. If spending that much money for my taste, I would go with in the future gryphon audio or Jeff Rowland. I loved the Jeff Rowland Monoblock I had in the past.
My new amplifier replacing the Krell solid state will be the CH Precision A1.5:-) I like to have tube and solid state. I tend to swap back and forth depending on my listing taste. It will be my first time owning that brand.
I currently own a Boulder 2060 and I'm almost two- third's way through saving to upgrade to 2160. I don't have any heat issues....other than my cats wanting to sit atop it when running, which lead to the cat puke- instigated upgrade from 2060 to 2160. Basically Boulder rebuilt my 2060 with the main board from a 2160, and the sonic improvements were enough to persuade me to commit half of my entire income, for three years, to buy a 2160. I find the combination with Focal Stella Utopia speakers and Wavac pre-amp to be a match made in heaven; just sooo musical, richly textured, and powerful; never sounds 'loud' or fatiguing no matter how far it is cranked, and with such exquisite delicacy one need never hanker for valves in the output stage
Rolexes are jewelry and it is ridiculous to compare McIntosh to Rolex unless you never intend to play it. The most accurate timepieces are quartz, but they don't have a sweeping second hand. I prefer that but realize it may lose a minute or two a month. I've never got even close to the point of it needing resetting before winding it anyhow.
People buy jewelry as luxury items and when they can be good investments also, why not? Most are not - Rolex and other collectible watches are the exceptions.
Most people buy higher end audio equipment for the sound, so long as the look isn't atrocious. If McIntosh offers poor value as most audiophiles agree, then the people most likely to buy them are looking at it from an investment of luxury good/snob appeal standpoint. There's a market for everything.
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