Why power cable effect overall syste sound?

There are some good responses, but this has been asked and answered so many times so a search might help avoid a new round of "heads in the sand".

Also, this is a fun name calling and pot-shotting topic for arm-chair paper tigers so its hard to sort through the BS when asking seemingly straightforward questions.

Here are a few simple, straightforward explanations in layman's terms..

One of the fundamental reasons any decently designed after-market power cord can make a difference is that noise generated and shared within interconnected systems poses a far greater challenge to resolution and fidelity than externally generated AC interference. Just as it is within electronics themselves, the laws of proximity rule when it comes to the effective treatment of radiated and power supply generated noise.

Power cords are designed to act as sympathetic, noise-isolated extensions of the primary winding within a component’s power supply. Seen this way, their function takes on a more understandable role. They represent the initial outward electrical interface for each piece of electronics in the system. That raw wire interface can either act as an antenna for radiated HF and ground-borne noise or it can be engineered to isolate the power-supply port from internal and external EMI, RFI interference.

There is no such thing as a power supply that is adequate to filtering or isolating itself entirely from the huge volume of gigahertz noise that surrounds electronics systems and comes from within them. The bigger and more powerful the system, typically the larger the problem an unshielded or unprotected AC port can become. That is not to say electronics systems cannot sound great without after-market cords, or that tons of money must be spent on them, it's just to say that there is real-world science that explains why that they "can and most often do make an easy to hear difference or improvement in recorded or reproduced sound".

In general, power cords do not represent the last few feet of an AC grid leading to a component; they are first few feet from the perspective of each component’s power supply. Due to the fact that your AC is in principle the_source_ of sound for any music or sound system--AC rectified to DC which carries the signal through the system--it would seem imprudent to ignore the possibility of a difference and not perform the simplest of empirical experiments for oneself--unless the point of discourse is only to make funny asides under strict internet protection :o).

Since no product of this or any kind are being forced on anyone, each is free to try for themselves and make their own determination. Certainly the fact that many of the finest recording studios, mastering professionals, electronics engineers speaker manufacturers openly use and endorse them would seem to dim some of the more ardent "internet posting professionals" erm, arguments...

Grant
Shunyata Research

Knownothing,

>>>"In some ways, it doesn't so much matter what is going on with the many feet of unshielded cable in your walls as long as you are effectively dealing with radiation, interference and noise potentially present in the area directly behind your equipment."<<<

That is essentially true. Improving the wire quality, gauge, isolation and connections between your panel and the wall outlet will render a noticeable improvement in most any system, but nowhere near the improvement *possible* as you move closer to electronics.

Too many people labor under the misconception that components sit at the end of an electrical "hose" and AC pours in like water carrying AC noise and garbage with it. The reality is that components sit between the hot and neutral poles of AC that are rapidly alternating current impulses. Noise that comes from outside the home is minimal and has almost no impact on system resolution compared to system generated and shared noise. Its still a good idea to have system protection from natural weather events or grid surge problems but even these in most cases are over rated. Electronics themselves have built in power filtration that will knock down common spikes and surges that are external to the system.

The bridge rectifiers or switching supplies in electronics--especially within amps and digital transports are often the main culprits in emitting ultra high-frequency noise both as a back-wave and a radiation pattern that surround electronics like a halo and race back through ground. Whatever can be done to mitigate that noise nearest its inception will often net the most obvious results. Obviously, nothing with AC is simple or insensitive so connections, terminations, resistance, reactance, impedance, shielding, geometry and wire type and quality can all play roles in shaping a final outcome.

Of course this is all a process and no one has all the answers. This is more of a readers digest version of what goes on based on experience.

I would never put PC's ahead of room treatment, electronics selection, speaker interface etc etc. However, when viewed as a system rather than as a single PC add on aftermarket tweak to be compared one at a time, replacing power cords in any stock PC system will render fairly irrefutable results in terms of a plainly audible difference. Whether that's good bad or otherwise is in the eye or ear of the beholder.

For those that don't believe their ears, replacing a stock PC on any top quality flat screen like a Pioneer Elite with a good shielded power cord will also render an immediate, hard to ignore result. FWIW.

Grant

Rrog,

I can appreciate your POV and comments. It good to see someone toss in some intelligent context instead of kindergarden size tomatoes--which is what I think the other poster was referring to. I would simply add a few points having read your opinions.

ARC no longer hard wires their electronics and openly endorses some aftermarket power cord designs. They also use aftermarket cords in the testing and development of their electronics, as do many major electronics and speaker manufacturers--the list is very long. These same companies also use aftermarket power cords at major trade shows. There are also countless film and recording studios at the top of the food chain who relentlessly test every facet of the systems that provide their living--and have selected aftermarket power cord products. Bob Ludwig's use of Transparent Audio products is one of dozens of examples.

Belden manufactures standardized power cords in many types and sizes to suit major accounts considering the fundamentals of safety, various connection types, wire sizes and current rating. They maintain great testing and science labs to ensure failure proof designs that will qualify for UL rating. They do not address EMI/RFI rejection or minimize impedance ratings, reactance levels or anything that could be considered performance rather than safety oriented.

I do get the point though that some may find that too many high-end power cords do too much to alter sound rather than improve it and go back to Belden out of frustration. To posit that power cords make no difference however is a difficult position to maintain given simple scientific explanations for their function and thousands of credible experiences. That was what all the dust was up about in this and many threads like it.

And as far as "some guy making cables in a garage" as your comparison, sure there are outfits like that. This is in part what makes life difficult for people choosing products of any type--- especially cables and power products. Anybody can make cables and start a business so its up to the end user to use common sense in his selections for trial.

There are more than a few companies with massive scientific infrastructure, testing labs, US factories and brilliant science minds behind power cord products that are performance oriented and also have UL ratings. It is no easy feat to get into and stay in such a competitive small market for any length of time without making products that hold some intrinsic and broad value.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and has a right to share them, especially when thoughtfully explained. You are thankfully one of the few that doesn't toss poorly constructed epithets and run away like they are playing a neighborhood game of ring and run.

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research

Sebrof,

I see no amping up, no marketing, no reports of seeing the pink elephants. I simply answered a direct question. This thread has drawn no overt attention and beside a few low-brow comments has remained relatively civil. And if you believe this type of discourse on a used product sale site has any real impact to commercial markets I have news for you, _it doesn't_. Maybe if a company pushes hard to market their gear here and they sell direct or have agon dealers there would be a small blip... but otherwise you give these forums w-a-y to much credit for having any real affect.. :o)

There are in fact impulse tests that clearly show differences in impulse current delivery efficiency between stock wire and wire that has been designed for lower resistance/impedance characteristics. The problem with posting results of any kind is that then the argument changes to: "oh, well prove that has an affect on sound" or "that's not peer reviewed" or... on and on, round and round we go.

For people that hold unshakeable beliefs, no tests, measurements or tidal wave of anecdotal evidence will be enough because they are not truly curious enough to perform their own simple empirical tests. The argument seems to be the point of their hobby and nowhere is that hobby more popular than here and other chat rooms, where people calling themselves names like zippo rip and run to their hearts content. It is a waste of time engaging in those debates. As far as changing the waveform, that would be a simple task but would imo sound horrible :)

Almarg, your question is posed in a general form and I don't want to get into a position where I am perceived as defending other companies products, design tenets or price models. Nor do I want to speak of our products or philosophies because that was not the point of my participation.

I will say this and leave it at that. Inexpensive designs from my perspective should act as tools to prove that noise-isolated power cords *can* and often do make demonstrable, repeatable improvements in sound and visuals. They should be over-engineered to perform at the highest possible level regardless of a shrinking profit margin because a broad range of exposure is expected. That said, obvious cost constraints apply such as the use of tinned copper foil or tinned-copper braided shielding instead of complex conductor braids etc. Also, having the cords machine made versus hand made can make an obvious difference in cost to manufacture--giving better performance at lower costs..

Once you get into the higher price ranges there is greater freedom to use advanced wire treatments, geometries, more complex hand applied terminations and upgraded connectors. Of course, whether these additional processes that increase the cost of manufacture also increase the performance value in a given context is subjective and should be judged independently in each system. Obvious rules should apply based on the cost of the system versus the cord being considered for trial.

Once again, the most compelling and convincing tests for non-believers is to swap out stock cords for a system of less expensive but well-designed shielded cords. This at least should prove the difference exists. Where anyone might go from there is the subject of many threads here so no need to make this another one of those.

Regards,

Grant

>>> have to wait until I find a good Playstation to do a real acid test.Then I might get impressive audible results."<<<

Like I said, for some that's the name of their game, making participation rather pointless. A fine example of what typically shows up in these threads.

;o)