Why not horns?

I just read my above post and discovered some very poor wording. I said that Duke and Jonathan are manufacturers of small scale loudspeakers. What I should have indicated is that they are limited production, not small scale. From what I've read, they both are well regarded, well received and quite popular state of the art options.

Here is the driver I am using:
http://www.bcspeakers.com/product.php?id=0000000035

Check out Acoustic Horn Company AH300 to see the horn I'm talking about. While it is true that a term like distortionless is hyperbolic, it is also true that you will be unable to detect any semblance of distortion in my room at practical listening levels. Conical horns are claimed to avoid congestion and therefore distortion in the horn throat.

As for room interaction, it is actually lower than with more conventional drivers because the horns are only 40 degree dispersion. That's 20 degrees either side of axis, which is to say pretty narrow. That means the sound reaches you well before it reaches any reflective boundaries.
The disqualifier for some people will be listening distance. It is best to have at least 12 feet between you and your horns.
Distortion figures at 120 db have no place in any discussion about my sound system as it will never play anywhere near that loud.
These are the same horns used by Gogent, Oswald's Mill and Chris Brady of Teres Turntable. There is no honk. The presentation is like that of a very dynamic QUAD.

Those of you who reject all horns out of hand have much to learn.

I made an assumption when I started this thread that only a small percentage of audiophiles were aware of how well horns can reproduce music. So far these responses support that assumption.

While there are many of you who might not enjoy the sound and there are a number of others who are in circumstances that make the horn choice inappropriate, many others could improve their sound system to a great degree by switching to quality front loaded horns.

Emerald Physics and Earl Geddes are two sources who offer rather affordable and well regarded options. BD Design and Acoustic Horn Company are a couple of others.

I urge you all to find out what you are missing. High efficiency is a side benefit in that it increases your amplifier options infinitely. Check it out.

Rleff - My speakers are not single driver but rather a hybrid something like what Ralph describes. I have a 15 inch woofer in a 5 cu. ft. ported cabinet under each horn. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. I don't know of any full range driver either. Typically a horn can only cover about two and a half octaves. That's why full horn systems are usually 4-way set-ups.
My horns are driven by permanent magnet compression drivers because I can't afford field coil drivers and because I was told by Bill Woods that the B&C drivers I use perform very near to the level of Cogent Field Coils. Certainly they are as close as I am ever likely to get. the Cogent Field Coil sound. My drivers sell for about $480 each. The Cogents are about $15,000/pair.

My system is unsettled as I am playing around with parts and pieces right now. I have a slight noise, a faint rushing sound behind everything. I've been able to eliminate it by taking the digital speaker management system out of the loop but that is no solution. Because the speakers are so good, I am working to eliminate the sound. I have been using a DBX Drive Rack PA up until now but have recently learned that better units are available. This led me to purchase a British made XTA DP 224 to replace the DBX. Apparently getting home and pro audio to play nice together can be very difficult due to impedance and level matching issues. Toward this end, I have hired a professional sound engineer to do the dirty work for me as I have discovered the XTA to be over my head.
So here's the kit: I have a Technics SL 150 MK II turntable with a Rega RB 300 arm. Both are new and have not been put into use as yet. I have a Parasound JC-2 preamp going into the digital crossover and then to my amplifiers. Todaythere is a Class D Audio 60 watt stereo amp kit driving the horns and a Parasound A-23 amplifier driving the woofers. Other amplifiers that may be used in the final setup are waiting in the wings. I have a second Parasound A-23, a Perreaux PMF 1850, A pair of Audio Mirror 20 watt SET monoblocks, and a soon to be delivered Rawson clone Aleph J.
The speakers are Acoustic Horn Company AH300 horns driven by B&C DCX 50 compression drivers. These are mounted atop JBL L-200 cabinets with RCF L15P530 woofers installed.
Here's a link from the Acoustic Horn website showing a photo of my speakers back when I bought them about 18 months ago. Scroll down to "Tom from Denver" and that's my system then. The speakers still look the same. If you click on a photo, it will enlarge.

http://www.acoustichorn.com/testimonials/

I suspect I will wind up using all Parasound because the stuff is balanced, matched and has gain controls on all three pieces. I've read that there can be great advantages in using identical amplifiers in a biamp situation. Input on that theory would be appreciated.
Now about the title of my thread. There was no agenda driving the choice of words. I guess I was just responding to the seemingly prevalent bias against horns which has surfaced in some of our replies. I was a Zu owner previously and I could go back to those in a minute. Sean Casey cut his teeth on horn speakers and I think there is a horn characteristic in the delivery of Zu speakers. That shows up in their exceptional dynamics and broadcast nature.
Perhaps I should have titled the thread something like, "I like my horns. Do you like yours?". The true believer epithet is over the top, Glenn Beck caliber heckling which I would love never to encounter for the rest of my days but Atwater lifted the lid long ago and we, as a result, have become a nation of snipes. I hope this entry answers enough questions and permits us to get back to the topic of "WHY NOT HORNS?".

Marty - I can see in theory that the problem you mention has potential to discourage. I don't personally play my system loud enough for the lagging woofer issue to compromise results. But I'm coming into geezerhood so I' may not serve as a useful bellwether in that regard. By the same token, my drivers are coaxial, yet I've never seen fit to hook up the tweeters. They just aren't needed as I don't hear anything up there.
Perhaps there is reason to question my being a useful example in any regard as I no longer hold that the best sound reproduction I can achieve should be my only goal at the expense of all else. I've reached a place in my life where I choose to balance convenience, aesthetics, cost and versatility against audiophile absolutes. Are others making those kind of choices?

My bass cabinets are 24 inches wide and 33 inches tall. The horn mouths are 18 inches outside diameter. Total height is 52 inches. You could hide my whole speaker behind a Magnapan 3.6.
Go measure your speakers. Certainly mine are not compact but neither are they outlandishly huge. Some people have space for them and some don't. I'm aware that horns do not have universal appeal. If they are a realistic possibility, I would urge you to investigate. If your wife won't allow it or you can't sit back far enough or your religion clearly states "Thou shall not horn", then you shouldn't tamper with your staus quo. If you have a curiosity, as I inexplicably did, then scratch yer damn itch. Take a flyer and see if you like the horn presentation the way a lot of others say they do.

I was hoping to solicit input from people who know and understand the parameters of horn design. Since we aren't hearing from them, I'll stick my neck out and mention a few things I think I know about the subject. If nothing else maybe we'll learn from the people who correct me.
Horns work for speaker drivers just as a megaphone works for Al Jolson or a cheerleader. It was used as a mechanical microphone, amplifier and speaker before we had electronic ones. I believe the idea is one of focus. The energy generated by your lungs or your driver is channeled through a narrow opening and allowed to disburse gradually, just like reducing the diameter of a water pipe increases the pressure.
The lower the frequency being reproduced, the longer the wavelength and the bigger the horn required. This is why bass horns need to be large. I don't know exact numbers but the mouth has be enormous and the throat may need to be like 35 feet long.
Because the mid and lower horns need to large, you need to be some distance back from them so that their presentation can blend sufficiently before the combined wavefront reaches you.
The aforementioned mechanical amplification also explains why horns are so efficient.
Some reasons why horns you have heard in the past were not very pleasant could be poor design, lousy amplification, too damn loud, poor driver integration, cabinet or horn resonance and placement. On this last point, I should stress that, while placement in a high end sound system isn't terribly critical, having the speakers fire at you from similar distances and the same direction could prove very important but be ignored completely by the company who was merely installing "reinforcement". Another matter to reflect upon is the source employed when you heard the horns. It could well have been an 8-track or a beat up record played with a broken stylus. In general horns have been misused far more often than they have been optimally installed.
Metal horns often ring. Many Klipsch owners have taken steps to deaden their horn bodies. Passive crossovers in horn designs of the past were quite rudimentary and cheaply executed. Woofer cabinets in hybrid horn systems have sometimes been constructed of broad pieces of plywood with little or no bracing and no dampening.

My horns are made of 12 one inch thick cherry wood petals. They are conical in shape, meaning the flare is perfectly straight with no elliptical contours. The throat is made of cast aluminum. No ringing, no resonance. I used a pair of JBL L-200 cabinets for my bottom end and mounted the horns with a simple pair of rudimentary brackets bolted to the back of the woofer cabinet. I completely bypassed the native horn and passive crossover and hardwired my amps to their assigned drivers. Then I bought a dbx Drive Rack PA to serve as active crossover, EQ, time delay and level matcher. Because of the extreme efficiency I am able to use excellent sounding low power amps for small money ($300 each) to drive this system and I must say that it will make you swallow your gum. Total outlay 18 months ago was under $5K for everything from the DBX to your ears. The preamp admittedly wasn't cheap. It's a Parasound JC-2.

So I hope this offers some clarification about product, price, placement, performance and pleasure.

Comments? Questions?

Csmgolf has provided a personal account of an honest attempt to make horn speakers work for him. It could be argued that his experience is not indicative of the best that horns can offer but that is not the purpose of this thread. I want people to overcome ignorance of what horns can do and he has certainly made to desired effort.
He says that he is keeping an open mind. What else can you ask of him?

My reach here is toward those who have closed their minds. I don't expect everyone to like what I like but since getting involved in horns myself I have come to learn that there are few areas of sound reproduction that embody misinformation and misunderstanding to the degree that horn loudspeakers do. Even the most prominent horn designers are sharply divided as the best approach. The pre-eminent horn authority at this point in time is probably Tom Danley but I'm sure you will hear arguments about that statement as well.

Perhaps, if enough of us get interested, the forces that guide research will guide the horn. As a technology, simple as it seems,we appear to be dealing with an option that has remained an infant for 50 years.

For those who tak about sweet spots, do some reading about the JBL Everest. Maybe some investigation of B&O experiments with sound directivity and room correction will provide inspiration or spark some imagining. Geddes has a Circle on Audio Circle that is heavily trafficked. Romy has a following. Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill is utterly retro and cutting edge in the same stroke. His designs challenge the best of everything yet stick with horns and single tubes. Bruce Edgar may be the guy who got us all started. Klipsch holds a dedicated following. Jadis created one of the most sought after speakers of all time, all horn. Usher makes a horn speaker that looks very interesting. Bert Doppenberg has been stirring souls and stirring the pot for a couple of decades. Classic Audio Design makes the speaker that Atma-Sphere uses and adores. Field coil drivers are in use there and in the minds of many an entrepreneur. For those who don't know, a field coil uses an electromagnet the way your speakers use permanent magnets.
Have I forgotten anyone? Probably. I'm no expert and I imagine some of what I just wrote contains minor factual errors. I'm too lazy to bolster my recollections with back research for the purpose of this thread. I'd just like to get more people talking and more designers working on horns. I'm sure that tapped horns hold huge potential and I bet that designers can make horns more living room friendly if sufficiently motivated. I understand that the laws of physics are more than just suggestions but I also know that the audiophile community is infinitely resourceful. Our problems lie in the area of media misdirection. The audio press might better be called the audio suppress.

Horns have unexploited potential. Lets get busy harvesting their potential. Most other options seem to have reached their limits long ago.

Take some time to examine this design.

http://www.techfx.us/web/insubnia/Exodus%20Anarchy%2025hz%20TH.pdf

It is said to provide horn bass down to 25 Hz. in room. I would suppose that means upward extension to about 125 Hz. These are small enough and cheap enough to build for many of us to consider using them in a distributed bass arrangement. I've been thinking about it and wondering about how it sounds. Anybody here able to answer that question?

Proselytizing? Me? Well, perhaps I am. But I'm not twisting arms or pushing anyone. I don't care if you don't like horns. I just notice that there are people out there who would argue passionately about the enormous difference between power cords but dismiss all horns with a single flippant comment about honk. Plainly they do not all sound like PA systems.
These devices are badly undervalued and misunderstood. They hold a lot of potential and have realized much of it. But some of the responses we've read here demonstrate that I am correct about the confusion surrounding horn based loudspeakers. The real purpose of this thread was to get people talking and to get the record straight. I think there has been some success.

The above two posts come from two of the leading lights in American loudspeaker development. Both refer to Bill Woods of Acoustic Horn Company in Hastings, Ontario. Even though I own and love his horns I was unaware that Bill stands alone in horn design as they both suggest. While very impressed with what I own, I was a bit naive, I guess, in that I did not realize that my horns are not so typical of better horn design. Duke and Jonathan are very well traveled and accomplished manufacturers of small scale cutting edge loudspeakers so praise from them carries the weight of validation. For my part, I don't get out much. I don't go to shows and there are no interesting dealers anywhere near here. Hence, I approached this thread with a belief that my horns were somewhat more typical than these guys seem to think. OOPS!!!
Bill has been my guide in pursuit of owning quality horns. Now I learn that he may be the world leader. How nice. But how foolish I must look. Maybe other horns do honk. Maybe they all fall apart when playing loud. Mine sure don't.

Let's not be adversarial about this. Any speaker is a legitimate option. Horns are being rediscovered after years in P.A. oblivion. The process has been slow because of bias born of popular myth and actual poor performance. Now there are legitimate contenders for best available sound honors to be found in the horn community. My effort here is to open the door to consideration for horn designs among the broader audiophile membership. Those who choose to ignore the invitation to consider horns have their reasons. That's fine. Some of them may reconsider, however, if they see intelligent conversation endorsing the choice. That is what I hope we are doing with our comments.

Did I mention that horns will bring a level of excitement to movies that conventional audiophile speaker designs cannot ever match? It's true. That's why movie theaters still use horns even though they have the technology and budget available to install any other type they might want.

If you are getting a little bit bored these days, if your last few system changes just haven't lit you up, then maybe you are tired of your speakers' limitations. That's what I've heard from several guys I've talked with recently. It happened to me too. Check out the horn speakers a lot more carefully next time you attend an audio show. Maybe you're fun will come back to you through a megaphone.

Many people today are unable to differentiate between what they actually know and what they have chosen to believe. Experience draws a bright line between these two opposites.

Johnk - Since you know what you are talking about, it would be helpful if you would explain your points rather than just issuing pronouncements that people like me cannot understand. Why would a front loaded bass horn need to be 25 x 25? Why is this not true of a rear loaded horn? How is it that horns can be designed to operate at less than 10 ft. listening distance? Would this horn be front loaded?
Part of the reason I started this thread was a hope that doing so might clear up a lot of the confusion and misunderstanding surrounding horns.

Dan - I can hardly fault you for being an analogue purist but please keep in mind that everything in audio demands compromise. To my way of thinking the benefits and convenience introduced by digital processing outweigh the theoretical advantages held in place by analog austerity. Two equally valid approaches. Everybody is happy; nobody is wrong.
Mapman- Your cynical asides are not helping me any. Do they enhance your situation in some way? Do you suppose 32 foot organ pipes are used where a 3 footer would do just as well? Yes, bass horns must be that long if the frequency you strive to reproduce is low enough to require that length. Sometimes this is accomplished by folding the horn. Whatever you are using is a poor substitute for horn bass because you don't know the difference or because you can't accommodate the real deal. I don't have the room or the budget either. The photo link you provided is an example of someone who has the knowledge, dedication and wherewithal to do it right. Do you admire his system or not?

You've been told repeatedly in this thread that true bass horns are unwieldy and that most of us have some sort of hybrid with bass reflex cabinet and midrange horn. The irony may lie in you insisting that horns are not for you over and over and over again. We got it and that's fine.
If more people take an interest in horns, better and cheaper horn systems will appear eventually. In a thread like this, we can become aware of each other and you can become aware of us. Perhaps this is the start of something that could benefit all of us in time. However, unless we start talking nothing will happen.

I'm surprised there was no comment about the link I provided for a small DIY Tapped Horn design that is said to reach 25 Hz. in room. It's footprint is about 7 inches by 20 inches and it stands 30 inches tall. Here's the link again:

http://www.techfx.us/web/insubnia/Exodus%20Anarchy%2025hz%20TH.pdf

Klipschorns are pretty large and they reach down to about the mid 30 Hz. range. They are designed to be placed in corners so only certain rooms can actually accommodate them properly. The idea is for the walls running out from the corners to serve as extensions to the bass horn. It works pretty well. The K-horn can be found pretty cheaply used ($2500/pr.) and aftermarket upgrades to crossover, wiring, horns, drivers, connectors, etc. are widely available. There is much room for improvement in the original execution but the upside is very cost effective. Not a bad place to start at all and quite possibly all you will ever need. But you have to have corners. I've read that some people build extra walls just to provide corners for their K-horns.

Horns have greater potential than any other approach. Designers who move into using horns do not go back unless they need the money they can make producing yet another boring rendition of the 3-way.

B&C DCX 50 compression driver

RCF L15P530 woofer

You can Google those

If you want to know about my horn, contact Bill Woods at Acoustic Horn Company. It's called the AH300.

You can contact Bill with your questions. I'm not qualified to answer. I just write the check.

Time aligned and in-phase are different issues. All of the drivers in a speaker could be mounted with their voice coils in the same vertical plane (time aligned) while one of the drivers is wired out of phase. So time alignment deals with physical relationship.
As explained by someone's post above, time delay can be adjusted to compensate when drivers are not aligned physically. Phase is another matter. It refers to the drivers all operating in unison electrically. This requires that all drivers are wired with the same polarity. As I understand it, a 6 db slope in the crossover causes a 90 degree phase shift. But from there I am lost. Who can explain this for me?

If you want to participate, you should know the path the conversation has taken.
That way you won't be taking us back over the same ground again or having to ask questions that have already been answered. You may find the whole thread pretty interesting. There have been many very well qualified and well informed comments and little or no off topic banter. Pour yourself a drink and settle in for a pleasant read.

Herman - Thanks, I needed that. Polarity and phase are different topics with different remedies. And polarity is fairly easy to diagnose and remedy. How about phase problems? What are the causes? How do you diagnose phase problems and how do you fix them?

I have done so several times in this very thread.

Prdprez - There is no need for you to educate yourself about horns unless you want to make a useful contribution to this thread or you are considering ownership for yourself. As you you've established clearly that you have no use for horns, pray tell, what use have we of you? Why are you presenting yourself so emphatically in an arena where you have no interest nor expertise? Seems self-serving and insincere at best.

The last three posts seem to have wandered away from the subject of "Why Not Horns?". If there is relevance, I can't see it.
The brand names you guys are offering do not offer horns as far as I know so why are they being named? If you want to say something about why you chose a design that isn't horn based, you would be on topic and making a useful contribution but simply shouting out names we all know from the back of the room doesn't really help me answer my question.
I have used and enjoyed Sound Labs, Goldmund, Avalon, Magnapan, QUAD, Aerial Acoustics, NHT, Spendor, B&W, Zu, Vandersteen, and others over the years but these horns I use now provide a sense of "you are there" that my previous speakers did not arouse to the same degree, if at all.
Naturally, I'm not able to speak to "why not horns?" because I use them. Many of the respondents here do not like horns and I'm looking for reasoned explanations as to why not. Simply saying what you like or what another product does that you like does not really add to the discussion.
I am assuming that the majority have no real first hand experience with good horns and therefore no way to comment one way or the other. Some, however, have been pretty assertive about a dislike that has gone unexplained.

Unsound - You have shared some very certain opinions. I think you are being asked for specifics as to how you came to form these opinions. Certainly you aren't just making this up. Where, when and which horns sounded so bad that you would condemn them all generically? Was it the PA system in your grammar school? The announcer at a sports event? Some home made affair at a rock show? Was it Klipsch, JBL, Altec, EV, Cerwin Vega, Avant Garde or some other audiophile product? Keep sharing. At least a few of us wonder as to what could have scarred you thusly. The damage seems profound and you appear to feel it is irreversible. It might be a healing experience to get the matter off your chest by talking it through at long last. We're here for you.

All that we are talking about with horns is mechanical amplification. As with electronic amplification, it can be good or bad, clear or distorted. Would you condemn all amplifiers as honky, distorted or shrill just because you heard one that deserves that description?
In many respects horns are in their infancy. I believe that many of the objections, particularly size and price, can be mitigated by motivated entrepreneurial experimentation and careful research. This being done on a small somewhat random and utterly uncooperative scale by isolated hobbyist/inventor types. A few, like Bill Woods, have made it their life work. Perhaps, if serious efforts were made by established firms like Klipsch and JBL
we would see real progress in this area. However, what is to motivate them if we continue to tell them we want poor sounding, slim compromised sculptures? If we can emerge from our self-imposed darkness and begin to learn about the potential hidden promise of horns, then there is no telling where it might lead us.

Unsound - Horns are the least exploited speaker technology out there. They are capable of lower distortion, greater dynamic contrast and quicker response. The combination of low mass and high output allows them to provide explosive sound and minute detail concurrently.
And does anybody think that horns are any more archaic than cones? The dome tweeter and conical midrange have been worked every way they can be and the last ounce of potential was wrung out of them long ago. Acoustic suspension is a parlor trick that can buy some compactness at the expense of speed, explosiveness and efficiency.
Horns are not yet well understood but the curtain is rising slowly and, I believe, we are nearing the threshold of a breakthrough in popularity which will create better and cheaper product. Maybe smaller too.

Very funny, Johnk. In this instance, "fast" means it refrains from eating.

I use my horns in a two way application with a light, fast 15 inch Italian woofer. The crossover is set at 400 Hz. right now with 24 db LR slopes in both directions. I cut the woofer off at 33 Hz. and let the horn reach for the stars. My compression driver has heat sinks and is designed to play up to about 40 db louder than what I use it for.
I have a conical wooden horn made of solid cherry wood that does not seem to color anything. I'm not sure about the validity of these few comments about disadvantages in horn use but none of it seems to apply to my set up. I've listened carefully over the last few days fo signs of coloration, phase problems, compression, etc. and no symptoms are apparent to me.
Bill Woods, who designed my horns and sold them to me along with aluminum throat adaptor and B&C driver, says that these represent the best midrange he can provide and that he has tested and measured them against QUAD, Manger and Heil, which he says are the best other mid range producers. To be honest, I don't remember if he also mentioned Walsh. We haven't talked in a while.
In any case, I am not a technician and I am not one who believes I possess superior listening skills. What I can say is that I am unable to hear any lag between my woofer and my horn, and that is a tone and body to musical instruments (timbre, I guess) which I never heard equaled by any other speaker.
Perhaps I'm the one who is guilty of lumping everything together. I don't get out much and I haven't heard any other horns in years. Maybe mine are not so representative of the breed as I assumed. Nonetheless, my horns do represent what is possible and I think that a larger company could produce this caliber of work at or below Bill's prices if they could justify the research and tooling. Bill has probably already provided much of the former and the latter can be outsourced reasonably, perhaps even domestically.

"Waveform Fidelity". Is that the name of an insurance company? A bank? Is it somebody else we have to bail out?

Or is it a meaningless term?

Damned if I know. Anyway the problem? seems to have been resolved to your satisfaction. So what other concerns keep you from being too optimistic? And what is it we should want you to be optimistic about? If horns aren't for you, that's fine. I certainly don't want you to feel any pressure to conform. If you're happy where you are, you are a rare and blessed audiophile. Most are overwhelmed by curiosity and driven to pursue some phantasmagorical absolute sound. If you have no such compulsion, don't apologize. You hold an enviable position in the audiophile hierarchy.
The question was "Why not horns?" and you have answered as completely as anyone. Perhaps I should have asked "Why Horns?" instead.

DCM 50 is a mid-range driver designed to cross over at 9 Khz. DCX 50 is a coax. I don't use the tweeter.
Here's what you need to know. I like my speakers quite a lot and I don't care if they are flat, fat or phony. However, B&C is a very highly respected line of Italian drivers. I use them because Bill recommended them to me, not because I read the specs. RCF is also an Italian company, also highly regarded.

I included links to my drivers earlier. If you want answers, go back and read the thread. You seem like you want to challenge me. Why?

If you are really interested, do some research on your own. So far you have been too lazy to read this whole thread. As for your IMO and your presumed expertise -- save it for someone who needs advice. I have received sufficient guidance from Bill.

Thanks, Duke.

Here's an ad for the woofer I'm using. It is now discontinued and I had to do a lot of chasing to find a pair. Notice the frequency response.

http://www.idjnow.com/StoreModules/ProductDetails.aspx/PID=L15P530

Here's the AH 300 horn:

http://www.acoustichorn.com/products/300/

and lastly, here's the mid range driver:

http://www.prosoundservice.com/m9_view_item.html?m9:item=BC-DCX50

I am presently using a DBX Drive Rack PA for crossover, time delay, and EQ.
Reading comments on The Lansing Heritage Forum led me to purchase an XTA DP 224 speaker management system to replace the Drive Rack. Presently I am waiting for Dave Wall of Snob Productions to find time to bring his XTA software to my house for professional set up. We're tentatively scheduled for next Tuesday morning.

Here's an explanation from Bill Woods about his conical horns and the advantages they provide.

http://www.acoustichorn.com/tech/conical/

Mapman - There is a quote I recall from AA. "Half measures availed us nothing". With that in mind I must say that a Klipsch Heresy, or any Klipsch for that matter, will be unable to show you what excellent horns can do.

I'm in western Colorado and Oswald's Mill is in north central Pennsylvania and lower Manhattan. Bill is in Hastings, Ontario. Chris Brady of Teres Turntables is in Broomfield, Co., near Boulder. I believe the Cogent guys are in the L.A. area. Perhaps you can travel to one of these places to hear what I'm talking about. If you are still reading after this long, you probably should go somewhere and get a listen. I know that Jonathan Weiss created quite a stir with these horns at the RMAF 2 years ago.

Here's a spec sheet on your JBL L-300 Summit speakers:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l300/page4.jpg

It had a mid-range horn covering from 800 Hz. to 8500 Hz.

Weseixas- You have been told repeatedly and politely that you and your friend, IMO, don't know what you are talking about. The JBL L-300 Summit loudspeaker I referenced above crosses from a 15 inch woofer to a horn at 800 HZ. The L-200 does the same at 1200 HZ. If you check another source besides your trusty IMO, you will find numerous examples from other esteemed manufacturers. When you are in this deep, it is usually best to stop digging.

All this talk is passing over my head at this point but I found a specification page for my woofer that may provide some clarification or narrow the discussion.

http://www.rcf.it/products/precision-transducers/low-frequency-transducers/l15p530

Is there anything useful in there?

Bill suggested I replace my native JBL LE 15B woofers with these because they are lighter, faster and more efficient.

Mapman - I agree completely. The proof is in the pudding - not in the recipe. Nonetheless, there is a reasonable ability to predict outcome based on past trials and failures. In this regard, specifications are surely useful to designers and scientists in general. For a guy like me, they are just numbers and do not transfer information that can help me decide.

Long ago I realized that I could read people better than I can read blueprints, so I make it a practice to choose someone whose advice I feel I can trust. While this approach generally works out well for me, I have had a few bad haircuts. In the case of deciding to trust Bill Woods, I was rewarded handsomely. He has a sterling and lengthy resume and has been chosen to assist many manufacturers as a designer and consultant. So I called him on the phone and found someone I could relate to immediately.

That's what eventually brought me to where I am now believing that the potential for horn speaker systems is barely being scratched. Right now we seem to be in the eccentric, mad scientist phase but it seems likely that a bigger market and more conscious development are just around the corner.

Are you a cartographer?

Herman - You have posted this already - or someone has - I remember looking at it.
Here's an explanation as to why I use my megaphone:

http://www.acoustichorn.com/tech/conical-horn-geometry/

I would urge everyone who has a genuine interest in this topic to read the explanation offered in the above link.

My horns are the AH 300. Price is around $2800/pr.

The link works for me. Go to the Acoustic Horn Company homepage. Then click on "How They Work". Then select "Conical Horn Geometry". That process will take you to the page I linked.

In this article, Bill explains his reasons (and how he reached them) for using the conical horn rather than something flared.

How do you determine what is a "true horn"? It would seem that you have set an arbitrary picture in your mind of what a horn is to the exclusion of any variant.

Herman - I just clicked on the link in your entry above and it took me directly to Bill's homepage.
Are other people having a problem accessing Acoustichorn.com?

Duke - Once again you have shown yourself to be gracious, considerate and knowledgeable. So, thank you again.

As I mentioned above, I am not technically inclined and therefore not technically proficient. Awareness of that fact leads me to choose an expert upon whom I feel I can depend. These people are carefully chosen and adopted gradually unless I can determine through research that they are what I hope them to be.

With Bill Woods, I felt no need to approach with caution. He is a well-respected and highly sought expert in the field of loudspeakers and one of the leaders in horn research. Tom Danley, according to Bill, is likely the king of that field today.

Horns are not so simple as many here seem to believe and the level of misunderstanding shown in this thread reveals and reinforces the need for further learning. Bill has worked at this for over 30 years and knows whereof he speaks. I urge all of you to visit his website and read every word he shares.

The Danley Tapped Horns, including the SPUD, demonstrate that new ground is being broken in horn design even now. The tossing around of conventional wisdom about horns and what they should look like reminds me of the yogurt, honey and sprouts era of nutritional wisdom. Lots of people still think that's what it entails.

As I said earlier in this thread, too many people are unable to differentiate between what they actually know and what they have chosen to believe. Most of us know almost nothing about horns as is evidenced by the negative comments some have seen fit to post. Of course, there are drawbacks to horn speakers such as size and cost but both of those issues have been addressed to some degree and, no doubt, will be further improved with time. Every approach has compromises and tradeoffs and not everything is a workable solution for everybody. However, the purpose of this thread is to overcome misinformation and share what we actually know. Whether or not my system represents the best options or I am an expert has no bearing on the topic as a whole.
Personally I think, from the experience I have had with my horns so far, that the upside here is tremendous and that DSP is probably the key. Passive crossovers are destined to join the typewriter and the abacus.

I'm not seeking inclusion. My horns are made of 12 identical cherry wood panels. Dan is right about the need for uniform perfection in the horn. The use of non-conical designs has as much to do with a desire to increase horizontal dispersion as it does any other consideration.
Please - please - please read what Bill has to say about his reasons for choosing the conical approach before offering any more of your uninformed preferences.

Over and over there come these statements of preference without any justification or explanation. Maybe you actually know what you are talking about but aside from Duke or Ralph, I don't recall hearing from anyone who has actually done any of this. Before you ask, I have not either. But if you read what I have had to say, you will notice that I make no pretense at expertise.

Merely saying "I loathe horns" offers nothing useful. Claiming that a conical is not a real horn is just stupid, and having heard a lousy sounding horn 18 years ago at a concert or in a Cerwin Vega frat house system doesn't really serve as the basis for bashing an entire category.

Little is known about horns by the general public and I will stand by my belief that there is a lot more to be discovered as we strive to do so.

DSP does not deprive us of info. I find mine provides exceptional detail in concert with the horns. Micro dynamics are downright amazing. Just hearing the crowd noise in the background at televised sporting events is a thrill.
There may be legitimate reasons for digiphobes to shun DSP but loss of information is not one of them.

Reproduced sound is merely an approximation of the original sound. How faithful that reproduction is depends on many facets and parameters. Trading better performance in one area for somehow compromised performance in another is what we mean when we talk about trade-offs. For some, the trade-offs in utilizing digital rather than analog might prove attractive. And it is very possible that the diminishment we see as factually inevitable may be practically absent.

So Ralph, I take it you aren't seeing the untapped potential of DSP.

Now we're getting into things I really don't understand - computers.
The first question I have to ask is, "Are all DSPs the same soundwise?"

Since we're talking digital, is the cheapo as good as the upper end pro stuff. I chose to believe not when I bought the XTA DP 224. However, I found that it was more difficult to set up than my DBX. So I have arranged for a guy to come by with his computer and his XTA software and set it up for me. Apparently he can just put it on a PC card for me to slip in the front of the unit or he can plug into the back through the RS 232 port, whatever that is. I can see it has 9 pins.
There is also a MIDI connector and an RS 485 in/out set.
Here is a spec sheet:
http://www.fmsystems.net/pdf/cutsheet/dp226.pdf

So I have to ask if the XTA is better than the DBX Drive Rack PA? If so, how so?
Does the quality of the DSP come into play or is the problem universal? Is there a problem at all?
The pros don't seem to think so. Is that just because it makes their job easier?
I don't hear any problem now other than the faint rushing sound in the horn when the system is muted. I bought the XTA to get rid of that noise because it is much more flexible than my Drive Rack. It has been suggested that the noise is due to a problem with gain level matching. Or impedance.
I'm hoping everything will be resolved next Tuesday morning.

I agree about the benefits I find in active bi-amping. There's more there there.
And in my system things are pretty simple. All frequencies above 400 hz. are emitted by a single driver with no crossover whatsoever. So where is the digital problem introduced. Is it at the XO point? Or through EQing? Or just by being in the signal path? Is it digital conversion that you find corruptive?

Could it be that with audio ignorance is bliss? Maybe we are better off just trying to be satisfied rather than dissatisfied? That argument sounds good but the other side will say that it is from dissatisfaction that discovery and progress spring. And who can argue with that?

Curiosity drives me a little but vanity might be the real motivator. I want to get as much as I reasonably can. I guess the anguish part of all this comes into play when I start trying to rationalize what is reasonable. And that unspoken disagreement among us may be why we feud. Everybody has a different value system telling him what is reasonable.

Big world, Herman. Where would one "stop by" for a demo?

I'm pretty interested in Pure Vinyl. Have been thinking about springing for the upcoming Parasound JC-3 phono section but I just sold my Technics SP-10 because we don't play records much these days. I have another Technics table and I intend to continue the option but I'm not sure I want to tie up that much money. I don't have your time delay issue - mine is only about 16 - 18 inches and could be dealt with physically by just shifting the horns forward. I guess I'll see if my prosound guy keeps our appointment this time. He's had to postpone twice.
What's an RME and how easy is it to choose settings and set EQ? If Pure Vinyl works so well in your system where there is no room for error, I have to think it could make me very happy if it is convenient enough for me to operate. I'm really looking for a "set and forget" circumstance. I've had enough hobby - now I just want carefree use.
The rest of my hesitation comes from a feeling of ineptitude when it comes to computers. They drive me crazy. I finally bought an Imac last summer and that has helped a lot. Windows drove me to the point of wanting to shoot my Dell.