Why NO LOVE For BOENICKE Audio Speakers Here ?


I think they are some of the most realistic sounding speakers on the world market!🎶

https://audioaddiction.net.au/boenicke-w8-review




real_music777

Showing 6 responses by prof

I've wished to hear more reports on the Boenicke speakers.  They are one brand I've really wanted to hear.  But I never see anyone selling them in North America.
I’ve been very intrigued by the Boenicke speakers.

But in looking at reviews, there is perhaps a "heads up" to give regarding at least one aspect of this brand, especially if one fancies lower power amplifiers. Apparently they are very low in sensitivity.

Here’s a review of the W8 speakers, with measurements (as well as comments on the measurements of the W5’s measurements as well:

http://www.boenicke-audio.ch/AusHifi-Jul17-Boenicke-HighRes.pdf

From the article:

Newport Test Labs measured the sensitivity of the Boenicke W8 speakers as 81.5dBSPL at a distance of one metre, for a 2.83Veq input. This is a very low figure and one that’s almost 3dB lower than the minimum figure specified by Boenicke. It is, however, higher than the measurement Newport Test Labs made on the smaller Boenicke W5 design, which was measured at 79dBSPL under the same conditions and positioned that design as having the lowest sensitivity of any speaker ever tested by Newport Test Labs. The W8’s result puts it in a tie for the third-lowest sensitivity ever measured by that lab, but more importantly means you’ll need to use considerable amplifier power to drive these speakers to high SPLs in a listening room. How-ever if you use too much power, you will heat the voice coils, reducing efficiency even further and possibly running the risk of damaging one or more of the drivers


There was also this in the review:

[Editor’s Note: In a response to an earlier review of the Boenicke W5s, in which reviewer Daniel Stiel commented on the low efficiency of the W5 design, Sven Boenicke, the designer, advised in an email fol-low-up to that review that he considered ‘proper amplification’ for his speakers to be amplifiers that are capable of delivering 1,000-watts per channel into 4Ω loads.


Other reviews also seem to indicate they are more room/position dependant than the average speaker, some struggling for quite a while to get them set up to satisfaction.

I also found these parts of the review intriguing:

You can quite easily prove this to yourself by playing a monophonic signal through the Boenicke W8s. Instead of hearing a solid, mono image directly midway between the speakers, you’ll instead hear a soundstage that is still eerily almost stereo-like in its pres-entation, with images positioned at different places across the stage, depending on the pitch of the instrument and the notes being played.

I find that interesting as, at least with his mono pink noise tests, John Atkinson always points out that a very narrowly defined mono image "always correlates with good (stereo) imaging." Where the Boenicke design is often remarked upon for it’s spacious soundstaging and convincing imaging, despite (or because of ??) the interesting phenomenon mentioned above.

Also, if you are one of those "the cabinet MUST be inert" audiophiles, this speaker design doesn’t seem to go that route:

A part of this bass warmth might be due to the W8 cabinets acting as very efficient resonators... as one might expect from any solid wood enclosure surrounding an air mass (i.e., almost all stringed instruments). Put your ear up against the wall of any cabinet built by most high-end speaker manufacturers and you’ll hear very little in the way of sound. Put your ear up against the cabinet of the Boenicke W8 and it’s like listening at the door of a concert hall. No doubt these cabinet vibrations also contribute to the unique sound of these loudspeakers


All in all, the review, like most I’ve read for Boenicke, describes the sound as excellent. So it seems like the designer has made a number of canny design choices.

I thought the review above shed a bunch of light on the Boenicke speakers that may be helpful to those of us who are interested in them.
I have little doubt from the reports that they sound excellent, properly set up and driven well by an appropriate amp. Though as a "tube amp guy" some of the info in the review gave me a bit of pause.

(Then again, I have MBL 121 monitors which are about as efficient as the way those Boenicke’s measured, and they sound quite nice driven by my CJ Premier 12 tube amps - 140W/side).
"Boenicke are asking near 7 Grand for these .. for what ... a pair of speakers that I can build for around $100."

Somehow I doubt that ;-)
And of course, your analysis, like all such rash analysis of "I could build that way cheaper" misses the work time a speaker designer spent coming up with the design, testing, refining etc (not to mention the added money involved selling speakers as a business, overhead, advertising etc).
westbam73,

Again, it seems you seek to inject some realism in to the thread, but you undermine this by discussing the issue in an unrealistic manner.

The "I could build this by myself for much less money" analysis misses all the ways in which actually manufacturing and selling a speaker becomes vastly more costly than just building something for yourself in your basement!


Aside from paying for myriad over-head costs that accrue from manufacturing, one is also paying for the time the designer put in to all the iterations of the design, and all the testing time, and expertise, leading to the product.

There are DIYers in almost every field, but the reason most of us don’t do the "I can make it way cheaper in my basement" route is because we don’t want to. I have other things I’d much rather do and so I pay manufacturers to do all that work for me. Same calculation goes in to the fact I, and most people, pay for products all day long. I mean...I pay a buck for a coke, but if you look at what’s in Coke, the actual elements have to cost pennies. But of course, THAT doesn’t take in to account everything it actually takes to manufacturer and sell Coke, and remain a successful business.

I’ve seen DIYers go after other companies too, e.g. Devore Fidelity, Joseph Audio. People say "Hey, I know those drivers. They aren’t very expensive. I could put them in a box too, for much less money!"

Well, if you could come up with designs as beautiful as those, and which sound as fantastic....you have a prospective customer. But then, there’s also the reliability aspect: who are you? How viable is your business if I need help, the product doesn’t live up to expectations, etc? Using Devore/Joseph Audio as an example, I have listened to a great many speakers, cheap and expensive, and few do it for me like those brands. And of course, the competition themselves often started "in the garage" and moved to manufacturing, where they now have access to greater facilities. And yet, I still prefer the sonics of speakers with those identifiable off-the-shelf drivers, honed by the design goals of a particular designer.


So we still have the question of whether the claims actually hold up, that the DIYer in question could produce a speaker that sounds JUST AS GOOD (remember, it must sound just as good to the person you are pitching this claim to, not just to yourself) as the more expensive commercial speaker.Maybe. Maybe not. I’d point out to DIYers pointing to highly lauded commercial speakers saying "someone can do that on the cheap"...then why aren’t they doing it? Why aren’t all these speakers being produced with the same sonic quality but for far, far cheaper prices? One of the reasons is, obviously, to think that can be the case is to vastly underestimate the actual costs of going in to the commercial speaker selling business. You hear from newbies attempting to get in to the speaker game all the time "I didn’t realize it would be SO expensive!"(In fact, I just read an account of an acclaimed speaker manufacturer who folded after brief success, even with stellar reviews, because it was more costly and difficult than he imagined from the point of view when he was making speakers in his ’garage.’)

So, again, if you want to bring realism to threads about commercial speakers....don’t just conveniently forget aspects of reality ;-)


westbam73,

Unfortunately that post didn’t bring anything more than a repitition of the same disparaging tone as your previous post; you didn’t in any substantial way address the issues I raised.

Repeating that the Boenicke speaker is only a "$100" speaker just continues to undermine your credibility for the reasons I’ve already stated.

The fact is you - and I mean YOU - could not create a speaker exactly like the Boenicke (design, materials, everything) and sell it for a $100. Let alone stay in business if you ever did.

It’s one thing to have opinions. Even ones born of having designed your own speakers. But it seems you prefer to browbeat people with your own opinions as if anyone not in line with your opinion is a fool.

Also: I don’t know what you mean by reviewers being in league to "sell."If you mean create copy intentionally to sell the products, then that’s another hit to your credibility. You don’t know what you are talking about. I’ve known many in the audio review business (and done some myself, and I still have friends who write high end audio reviews in the press) and virtually all I’ve ever met are in it for the passion they have for audio gear. I’ve never known a reviewer who had the intention of writing copy simply to sell the gear in the review!

Of course, the conspiracy-minded always have trouble accepting other people in a business - even writing - may generally have honest intentions.

Do I think there’s flim flam in high end audio? Yes. In fact, I take a lot of flack for being skeptical of things like AC cables etc. And I can be aghast at the prices asked in high end audio, especially for the upper echelon of speakers.

But ultimately "value" is subjective an in the eye of the beholder, particularly when it comes to speakers.
As I said: I’ve seen DIYers speak just like you about other speaker brands, how they are "doing it all wrong" and "they are just using off-the shelf cheap so-and-so." And yet I’ve found some of those disparaged speakers to sound mesmerizing. And it’s not as if I’m unfamiliar with good sound. I work in post production sound and hear super expensive mixing theaters all the time. I’ve owned many speakers that are generally quite accurate (including Waveform speakers that measure +/-1 dB over most of the audio range and have beautiful off-axis response).

And yet speakers that I’ve seen DIYers disparage have sounded fantastic. And there’s a reason why DIYers are just DIYers. And when they actually try to go in to business...gee...funny how those prices start inflating. ESPECIALLY if they try to offer speakers with the looks and build quality of the commercial brands they disparaged.

So, I’m sorry, but it’s wise to take your "immutable truths" with a large grain of salt.

Or you could read 'The Emperors New Clothes' ...


In this thread we have someone enter to deliver "immutable truths," claiming the equivalent of Boenicke speakers can be had for $100....with no evidence for the claim, while completely ignoring the reality of the costs of speaker development and actually selling speakers and running a business.  They are "naked" claims and no more.

So, I agree: 'The Emperors New Clothes' seems applicable here ;-)