Additional: I guess the Nautilus tweeter is better, but the rest of the speaker I do not know. Build quality is the other question. The Cherry veneer on the Nautilus is attractive, but they still do not look as solid as the Matrix models to me. The Matrix has a solid heavy grill design to help the sound dispersion. The Nautilus has a flimsy plastic grill much like the 600 series. I have not done a direct comparison of the two. What do you guys think?
Thirdly, is the Nautilus 803, 804, 805 worth the 60% increase in price in your opinion? Or triple what a mint used pair of Matrix go for??
I have a pair of N805s and it would be very difficult to convince me to sell them. I carefully considered many higher priced speakers but the B&Ws remained my favorites. The build quality seems exceptional.
Sugarbrie, . It does't get built much better than my Nautilus 805's. It stands to reason that a speaker with rave reviews like the 805's and 803's are bound to get a lot more buyers, and therefore a few more sellers. My friend has the big Silver Signature series B&W's, and even they are not significantly superior to the 805's ( a little more bass). The Matrix series is not a contender in any way IMO. Also, I think many of the B&W 's for sale are by people upgrading to another B&W. I use a REL Strata III sub with mine, and I suspect some of the sellers may not be using a sub, or perhaps have equipment that is not up up to the level of the 805's. If you are thinking of getting a pair of 804's or 805's don't think twice, they're alright!
Hmmm...I carefully auditioned 803N and 804N at home, and purchased neither. I had waited for B&W to ramp up production of the 804, as its size was ideal for my needs. Dealers explained that the 803N was a much better speaker, and that the 804N was developed following requests by the North American dealer network, to meet a $3500 price point. It was soon clear to me that it's sound was way too lightweight, and thus barely an improvement over the 805N. I soon found my reactions to the 803N to agree with those of a British reviewer I read last spring: the Nautilus floorstanders don't cohere in the nearfield, and require a good 12-15 feet before starting to sound integrated. As I sit in a 7.5' triangle it was obvious that I was hearing 3 different sets of drivers (the 400Hz lower crossover, as well the "hot" tweeter seem the culprits). Additionally I could not accept the extreme upper crossover/radiation pattern tonal shift accompanying listening above axis. The 803/804N do NOT pass stand-up/sit-down tests well at all! Although I didn't compare Matrix predecessors in my room, trusted friends who've owned Matrix802 were similarly surprised to find they too did NOT prefer the 802N in careful comparisons. (I also understand that DB Keele had a heck of a time setting up and measuring the 802N last year for his review, and found more than enough to be annoyed about, especially in the bass response...but that's 3rd-hand info) I REALLY wanted to love the 803N, as it was one of the few medium-sized 3-ways my wife would accept, but after trying Verity Audio speakers, the improvement, ESPECIALLY in coherence, midrange purity, and bass quickness and control, was overwhelming. But they did cost more.... Sorry to bend the thread. I've seen used 802Matrix for $1600/pr. Seems attractive, eh? Ernie.
Thanks Bmpnyc: I just aquired the next step up REL Storm III Sub that are helping out my B&W P5s. Thought my next step would be some N804s. I've read from some readers on Audioreview that a great sub with the N804s comes pretty close to the N802s. Anyone else??
My P5 do sound pretty good with the new Storm III Sub I must admitt. Maybe I should keep them for a while???
Thanks Subaruguru also: Your thread appeared when I posted the last below you. I have heard the same things you are saying from other sources.
I have a pair of N802 about 8.5' apart and they integrate beautifully. I can't say enough positive things about them.
I agree with Dan2112 - I have Nautilus 802 speakers spaced about 9' apart and they sound great. These speakers replaced a pair of Matrix 802 Series III speakers. The Matrix 802 speakers are good but the Nautilus is superior and worth the increase.
I own a pair of Nautilus 802. These speakers are amazing. They can image like a minimonitor if not better and capable of deep, tight and tuneful bass. I set them about 9 ft apart. They are very coherent (actually if not more coherent than my previous speaker Thiel 2.3). You need to be patient with these speakers because they need very long break in time (at least 200 hours) and need high current power amp to sound really good (I drive them with Krell FBP 300) The spike feet do make a big inprovement in sound quality. They are very transparent. So give them a high quality source and drive them with excellent preamp-poweramp, they will sing beautifully.
You can do alot better then B&W speakers for the same amount of money.I think mabe these people have found that out for themselves.Now I know that it is all relitive,if you have some one who has been living with Definitive Technology,Bose,Paradigm,Polk or speakers of that sort,when they hear B&W for the first time hell they probably thought they heard god.I have been an Aerial dealer now since 93 and I have never in that time lost a sell to B&W.I have taken my speakers to their house or they brought them to me.I have even had people take them from the local dealer and bring them over before they bought.I have always offered to bring my speakers to anywhere locally for comparison but as far as stores are concern there were never any takers.In fact most of the salesmen at the local B&W store own speakers that I sell which pist the owner off so much that he band any employees from entering my store again and that I was the enemy.In fact one went so far as to say that now he feels like he has been lying to people all these years.
Prior to my purchase of the B&W Nautilus 802 I have lengthy in home audition comparing Aerial 10T, Revel Sudio and N802. There is no comparison, the Nautilus 802 is the winner. I bought a pair and can not be happier. The rest of the system: Muse Model 8 and 296, CAT Ultimate preamp, Krell FBP 300, PS Audio PP300, NBS Monitor I interconnet, Monitor II and Monitor III speaker cables for biwire.
I have listened to the Nautilus 805 speakers and have found them to be very good speakers. From some of the posts and threads at this site it looks that they may require a little extra time and effort regarding setup and system synergy. Some of the owners have been very successful with this and are therefore pleased with the speakers. Those that have not been so successful may be the ones that are selling the speakers. I think that we can all agree that any high resolution speaker can be challenging to setup and incorporate. I consider the Tweeter on the 805's to be exactly that (high resolution), mock me if you must. I have also rarely seen equipment set up to its best advantage and performance in any audio shop. I do not own Nautilus speakers myself and this is just my take on it..
A94510 I am sorry,It's just that I listen to gear that is far and away more musical and resolving than the gear you have mentioned.Gryphon Antillion amp,Gryphon Sonata preamp,Gryphon CDP-1 cd player,Basis Gold Debut ect....The gear you hve mentioned was like a steping stone for me years ago and now I am spoiled and arogant...Sorry.
Sound_decisions...the term "musical" is totally subjective and I seriously doubt that the gear you have mentioned as " more resloving" than the gears I have. I listened to Gryphon gears. They are definitely not my cut of tea.
Where did you hear this gear?,at a show?,because if you did then I agree with you completely.Gryphon gear a shows have always been brand new.The preamp takes about a month and the amp takes about 3 months.That is why I give every sell 6 months trial to asure complete break-in.When the first Gryphon Antillion came in I thought,oh my god I bought a Krell,I was very disaponted,my customers at the time were asking how it sounds and all I could say was so far I have the best sounding Krell on the planet.When month 3 came around it became the most INCREDIBLE amp I have heard to date!!I had to take a lot of gear on trade in.That is why now I do not except Krell or Levinson on trade-in.My customers will not except it so it just sits there like a boat ancor untill I take it in the shorts by offing it to some used hige-end store.I am sorry A94510 but it is way beyond your gear and can easly be proven with your own ears. I am saying all this from the heart.I am not some white shoes audio salesman.Ask George Cardas,Paul Hales,Mike Kelly to name a few.
The Gryphon gears have reliability problem. The newest Krell FPB series power amp is vastly superior, and to me "more musical" than the prior Krell amp.
Driver integration issues I addressed relate to the listening distance from the speaker (front-to-back), NOT lateral separation, as seemingly responded to in a few posts above.... I simply couldn't get the 804 (REALLY needs a sub!) or the 803 Nautilus to cohere until I stepped BACK 10-15 feet, which doesn't work in my room. Re the 802N reviews, I just received back issues of Sensible Sound, and refer you to David Moran's take on the 802N when measured at my friend Tom's house last year (#78, Dec/Jan 00). I believe part of the driver integration issue stems from the highish 400Hz croosover, requiring mounting of the woofers fairly high up, with a major dip in power response around 300 Hz. The poor vertical axis response shifts I found (with the 804 and 803) bothersome because I like a loudspeaker to sound good as I walk into the room, not just when seated. I assume that the highish upper crossover (4kHz) is difficult to work with, especially given the broad flare of the Nautilus tweeter, and that B&W chose to shelve the tweeter down to prohibit a too-hot response; thus the oft-mentioned midrange "shoutiness". I had thus similarly feared that the Verity design, which runs the 5" mid naked up to an astonishing 5.5kHz cross would have a similarly problematic transition, but it doesn't. I've NOT listened critically to the 802N...perhaps the midrange enclose is more successful than the 803/804 in several ways, but Messrs. Moran et al didn't think so. I've got to believe that the room setup (sidewall distance), and listening distance (and height!) are VERY critical for these latest B&Ws, and that that's why results vary so much, eh? Ernie
I have owned the following B&W speakers in order: 1 B&W DM640 2 B&W Matrix 802S3 3 B&W Matrix 804 4 B&W Nautilus 804 5 B&W Nautilus 805 I like the 805's and will not sell them. I enjoy them more than any of the above list. Build is far superior to the matrix series. I have always liked B&W sound but I think N series speakers are more refined than the Matirix series stuff. As for why so many for sale - just a factor of how many were sold.
Subaruguru have you read the review in Audio Review Magazine (Feb '99). They actually measured the speakers with a TEF20 and spent time using them and positioning them correctly in the room and they raved about N802. I read the Sensible Sound Review and was very skeptical. I own a TEF20 and a B&K 4007 lab microphone and found very similar results to the Audio Review in my experiments. However, if the speaker does not float your boat then don't buy it - it's that simple. Trying to correlate speakers for sale on the used market to speaker quality w/o knowing the volume of sales is ridiculous. Dan
A94510 your living in the past,the very first amp Gryphon made back in the mid 80's had a problem with getting too hot and creating cold solders due I believe to the fact that we are double the current over here.Since the arival of the Antillion back in the mid 90's there have been no problems that i am aware of,And since i was the only dealer in the U.S. from 96 to the year 2000 i think i should have heard something?..no?Check out The best system ever built threads going on next door.It is good to here that Dan is comming out with better sounds these days.I went to his room a Treasure Island at CES and told him personaly that i was looking for a ss line that would fill the gap between Gryphon and McCormack(He liked that). I told him to come on over by the store and give his amps a shot.Do you know what he brought...I will give you a hint...It sure as hell wasn't an amp....because he is no fool...he brought the only thing Gryphon didn't make..a cd player..I didn't even think of that,THAT'S PRETTY CLEVER of him,don't ya think.I must confess that many many years ago i thought Krell was it.
The Antillion Signature pictures will be posted on the web site in a couple of weeks or you can e-mail me directly.
No Thanks sound_decisions, I will keep all the gear I have for a long time. Since you are a dealer for Gryphon, I take your words with a grain of salt and I only trust my own ears.
I can only help those who seek it.I am glad your happy with your gear,like i said before you can achieve good sound with the gear you own.Just for me, they were only the path, to the promised land.
Sound_decisions has your business of selling the Gryphon and Aerial been slow lately forcing you so aggressive advocating for them. Or is it because your neighbor B&W and Krell dealers outsell the lines you carry making you angry. I am happy for you that you found your promise land through your beloved Gryphon gears. It is just that they are not my cup of tea. I still want to wish you good luck for your business.
I have NEVER lost asell to either ,how on earth could i posibly be angry.Every time someone comes over and gets blown away i also fell their joy.It's just that their are some brands that will NEVER get to this level.I am sorry if you are angry that you bought some and didn't know better.You see i too am a consumer that can not aford to make mistakes on my perchases.No one in their right mined would pick any of the brands you chose for BEST SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD.Your brands are just beneth me,and i am sorry if that does not sit well with you.Yes Johnny their are people out their with better gear then you.Wavestream is the best tube gear and the best speakers out their today are the Martin Logan Statements.Two products that i do not carry!!I guess that shoots the hell out of your thoughts of JUST ANOTHER DEALER WHO LIKES ONLY WHAT HE CARRIES...no?I believe it is you that is angry;get burned by a dealer or two,it wouldn't surprise me.That is why i started in this biz,i saw too many people getting burned.I give a minimum of a 1 year all your money back program if your not happy,any other store you know of that stands behind what they sell like that..Not!Ask ANYBODY in the industry who has heard Gryphon and Krell side be side (other then those two).I personaly do not think you will find one person out their that would come out and say Krell is better(when i say the industry i mean manufactures not dealers).Try asking the ones that do not make electronics at all,speakers,wires ect.In fact try B&W and NBS.That's all i am going to say on this matter
Sound_decisions when you have a pair of Krell FBP 350M for sale don't forget to e-mail me. Thanks in advance.
I will never accept krell on trade-in sorry.
Sound_decisions just thought that I could do something to help out your business. So you don't have to work so hard to convince people to buy your Gryphon. If no Krell, then Mark Levinson, Pass or Roland will do because some of my friends are interested in them. But no Gryphon please. E-mail me.
I don't know why you think i am out here trying to drum up biz;I was trying to reply to a question from another guy who is probably trying not to make the same mistakes you did.I thing you might have a problem with people knowing exactly were your equipment stands in the real world.There are other products out there that are alot better than Krell.Rowland is a fine example sold it for two years,I thing I would even put Levenson befor Krell although I am not a Levenson fan.Spectral is another,Ayre is yet another,Symphonic Line is another,Simaudio is another,Sutherland is yet anouther,all of these solid state amps I would put above Krell.Dose this bother you that somebody thinks this way.
Sound_decisions since Chrismas is not that far away, I really want to help out your business. I will even take Aiwa since my kid needs a boombox. But still NO Gryphon OK.
You should keep the Aiwa for yourself,it might have a better resale value than your Krap.Woops I mean Krell.
I'd like to thank you two for making the presidential debates seem witty, concise, informative, and relevant.
NOT EXCEPTING KRELL,IS LIKE A DEALER NOT WANTING A USED ROLEX IN TREAD, KRELL IS THE HOTTEST RESALE PRODUCT.
I read only parts of the above messages (sorry but I'm on break at work) One reason many items of popular manufacturers go on sale about a year after introduction is that the salespeople can get them originally for a LOT less $$$ as 'personal demonstrators' or something. the cavieat is they may (usually) NOT sell them 'till ONE YEAR after purchase. So besides the normal amount of private sellers, all these salespeople dumping them to make (yes I said MAKE money; they get a GREAT deal on these products) are added to the sales lists.
This is interesting in that it perfectly exemplifies why no-one should take subjective appraisals very seriously (except their own). I have to say that I've heard equally committed endorsements for MANY different brands (usually carried by them) from MANY different dealers. Sometimes a consensus will occur. Sometimes not. I have been present at several low stress blind tests involving equipment of large price differentials and it is more often the case that even the equipment owners themselves cannot reliably identify their own hardware (I'm not including mixed comparisons of tube vs solid state)assuming fairly comparable performance capabilities. Of course, gross differences are just that. Gross differences. These two individuals seem to be firm in their respective opinions and ad hominem attacks won't strengthen either position. Let it be said that caveat emptor should also imply that many options should be considered prior to a decision. I personally appreciate a dealer who is willing to acknowledge that occasionally a lower priced component is equivalent or even superior to a higher priced competitor.(It does happen!) PAX
To add to Elizabeth's comments; traditionally, audio sales folk can purchase equipment at 50% of retail and may sell it a year later...usually at a profit. So within a few well-planned years, high-end audio can be free. And Robba; you're being awfully generous to our aspiring alpha males.....aren't you?
I am new to reading this forum, and because I recently purchased the 805 Nautilus, I had an interest in this question. Out of curiosity, I researched three widely-known used-gear web sites, Audiogon included,(as far back as the sites would allow) and the subscription publication, AudioMart, for "WTB" and "FS" ads on the 805 Nautilis. I found 5 people want to buy the Nautilus 805's and 2 want to sell. So, going back several months (close to the time this question was posted), at least in these sources,these totals do not seem to be unusual.