Here's some answers. First, the sort if measurements the OP think will be of use are too simplistic to be of use. second, measuements that MAY tell something would need to be done across the freq spectrum and all sorts of little things matter and cost money, like mortgage the house money. third go to someone like keysight tech and price a really good network analyzer and the cal and verification kits, cables and other stuff. You are talking a chunk of change and then you gotta find someone who really knows their stuff. OR you make up stuff with your spiffy equipment and then your competitors do the same thing because some customers think it matters. now your back where you started and have to make up more BS in marketingspace. There are billions of dollars of equipment measuring stuff right now and none of it is in audio. moneys not there. frankly its a silly thing to argue about.
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Mr. rilbr
Why do you say: " The trouble is no set of measurements directly tells the consumer how well the cable will sound"? Please say I don't know about such measurements. It's even worst, as you do not know what is it that makes one cable sound better over the other. So what spec. you would look at (if published) and how would you know, by that spec. what cable to buy? Don't worry. I know. DIY is a good idea. But what is the cable that you need? what is the parameter to look for and have in that cable? The bad part is, that the cable makers not only do not provide much information about their products, but they don't know what is in that cable, that should be significant. So sad... |
That is a poor question because some manufacturers do state some measurements. What measurements are you looking for ? The trouble is no set of measurements directly tells the consumer how well the cable will sound. Especially since there are thousands of different audio systems in the world today. If you are looking for certain measurements, you can ask the manufacturer, or have them done yourself. Beware, they are not always cheap and easy to do ! |
That's because for some unfathomable reason so many audiophiles insist on talking about specs and design and marketing malarkey, pretty much everything except for the only thing that matters, which is how they sound. All anyone has to do to find exceptionally good cables is focus on listener impressions. The Synergistic CTS and Atmosphere wire in my system is truly remarkable, and well worth the money. Worth as much as the speakers, at least based on their improving the sound quality just as much. If people aren't having this experience with cables, or threads about cables, its only because they're doing it all wrong. |
@ieales, 'So what is your mission or drive? Protect the uneducated from charlatans.' A good and principled answer. I'd even argue that calling them charlatans is giving them a large benefit of the doubt. Many reviewers, magazines and parts of the industry have formed a mutually beneficial society with the snake oil cabal. In fact the shameless scoundrels seem to be 'as thick as thieves' on this important issue. So it's essential that there are people who are willing to present the truth. There is not a single shred of evidence, other than the plethora of the merely anecdotal, that there is anything whatsoever to be gained from going above and beyond basic ofc cable. Or even a soldered iron coat hanger! I was going to suggest someone should repeat the old coat hanger v monster cable death match battle. https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger-36315... But lo and behold, guess what? Someone already has. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.soundguys.com/cable-myths-reviving-the-coathanger-test-23553/amp/ |
From what I’d learn, most doFar more eat at McDonald’s than Maxims. The "Burn In" comment is sarcasm. I’ve changed it for dim witted: "The poor schlub gets the item home, connects it to vastly different gear and rightly determines the sonics are worse. Hence, he’s advised 100’s hours are required to burn in. Poppycock! All that happens is the victim gets used to the change and convinces himself it got better. Meanwhile, the temperature, pressure, humidity, line voltage and CBLF frailties have changed. Burn In is BUNK! " |
Mr. teo_audio Unfortunately, the article you linked to, is a lot of none relevant BS. I lost it when I came across the "burn in". The only explanation for that with a copper cable is that it doesn’t sound good, and the salesman try to postpone the return, by convincing with the longer listening, the cable will brake in and sound better. I don’t know of how many that helped, but lately it is no more a hit among Audiophiles. They got a wake up call from their common sense. A genuine miracle. The article gives no definite answer what cable I (or you or anybody else) need. So you sent me read a long article with a dead end. That was the case when I started reading. What a waste of time. There is a methode, but it won’t be cut into stone, as all cable makers will oppose it, to protect their markets, manufacturing methods and sales buzzwords. It won’t happen. Some of their representatives are those who are my strong opposers. As I claim, there is a methode. Not everybody need to like the results. From what I’d learn, most do ! (9 out of 10). They about to approve the COVID-19 vaccine, for less success (6/10). I hope for the health of all, that we get a better than that result from tests. Regarding my methode and speaker cables, 9 out of 10 is good enough for me. No one will die from the 1q10 that won't like my way. |
For the sake of this endless argument, what is your explanation to the difference in sound with different speaker cables?http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/CableSnakeOil.php I read it (skimmed some) but Overall, I agree. At least in the attempt and direction. The big however, in the equation of attempting to be the public protector, is that..in the given complex equation..x, y, and z will forever remain unknowns, as long as humans exist in the realm of possessing differential, or possessing individuality. The self appointed job would be eternal, and unending. If there was exactly one DUT in all of eternity then all of it could be cut into stone and marked for the ages. Alas... the number, the sheer number of possible equipment differences, vs the number of possible human differences, vs the number of possible combinations of such... makes for an equation that has possible differences in each individual case, that probably exceeds the suspected number of atoms in the known universe. So, without the humanities involved, the engineering end of the pool, simply cannot achieve balance in any way...and finds itself floundering in a unsolvable morass of all. |
For the sake of this endless argument, what is your explanation to the difference in sound with different speaker cables For example Take a stranded copper cable of 0awg and one of 12awg running 10 feet connected to any amp with a DF >300 and a nominal 8 Ohm speaker and there is no difference in sound. |
For the sake of this endless argument, what is your explanation to the difference in sound with different speaker cables?http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/CableSnakeOil.php |
Mr. ieales
You claim that the Audio industry and Audio Testing (Audio Precision) as well as Wikipedia, are all Rubbish. You know better? For the sake of this endless argument, what is your explanation to the difference in sound with different speaker cables? Do you have one? It is easy to criticize. But what is your theory? What do you have to bring to this discussion table? Except that you disagree with the entire Audio Industry, testein and Wikipedia ? |
Rubbish "In an audio system, the damping factor gives the ratio of the rated impedance of the loudspeaker to the source impedance. Only the resistive part of the loudspeaker impedance is used. The amplifier output impedance is also assumed to be totally resistive." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor Neither the amplifier nor the speaker have constant A/C impedance |
In Electronics, sometimes the analysis ignore a part, to simplify the circuit and better understand. The same with the next level: System. With that approach, there are 3 elements in that loop: Amp (output stage), Speaker cables (two), Speaker. As long as you look into that as a whole loop, the cables become insignificunt. Mostly conductors do not become a part of such analysis, unless its high current or very long (res. value). Well, in that loop the speaker cables do matter. If replaced, they sound different. As so, the described analysis do not apply. My way to analyze the circuit, if looking into the Amps output circuitry, through the speaker cables. In such way, the speakers can be ignored. it is not that they do not exist. With that approach, you may replace speakers: 8 ohms, 2 ohms, any type, the cables that fit the Amp's DF will be good for all speakers. If the Amp is replaced, and the new Amps has different DF, it need to be calculated again. If the DF gets smaller, the same cabe will be good (even not all of its thickness is required). If DF gets higher, the cable shall be replaced to a thicker cable, as calculations recommends. |
I’d like to get your take on why high-end manufacturers don’t post measurements? would you like to see how a cable measure before ....does it matter to you? The above is impressively full of various grammar errors for just 2 sentences. The first sentence is not a question, sorry. You can’t just throw in a question mark whenever the feeling hits you. The second sentence needs to start with a capital letter, like you did with the first sentence for example. Also, the word “measure” actually needs to be in plural form, which means put an s on the end. And then we have the meaning of the second sentence. What you may have been aiming for versus what came out, so to speak. Before what, bro? Before I die? Before Trump is ousted from office? The 3 dot thing can’t cover for you on this one. And then we have, “Does it matter to you”. Sigh. Yes it does, OBVIOUSLY! |
b4icu-
I know music is AC. Those who claimed that their cables are directional don't! What a shame... Oopsie! How's that old saw go again? When you assume you make an ass out of yourself? Something like that. AC stands for Alternating Current. AC does not stand for Going Nowhere. In that case it would be GN. In order for work to be done something must move and flow somewhere. Water over a turbine, gas through an engine. Electric charges through a wire. Think about it. There has to be flow. But even in your imaginary world where there is no flow, there still has to be movement through your AC cycle. Whether you imagine the cycle starting from zero and going negative, or positive, the fact of the matter is it must start off going one way or the other or else where is it going to reverse and go the other way from? This way that it starts off, whichever way it is, one thing for sure, its in a direction. One or the other. You do not get to have your electrons and eat them too. They must go somewhere. Now here's another one. Ever notice how speakers have this unfortunate habit of burning out when played too loud? How's that happen, then? In your view where the current goes nowhere, where's the energy come from? If there's energy in the form of heat in the driver it had to come from somewhere. If so then how did it get there? From which direction did it come? It came from the amp. Where did it go? Well the speaker wasn't hot and now it is so odds are it went from the amp to the speaker. How much more evidence can we find to demonstrate the fact of direction? Here's another one! On both the amp and the AC receptacle, the power comes out of two wires, right? Wrong! The power comes out of one wire. It just doesn't seem that way because no power ever goes anywhere without completing a circuit. A circuit by the way is a path for the electrical energy to complete on its journey to ground. It can be through an amp, a speaker, or you. Electrons do not care. But they refuse to do a darn thing until that circuit is there. Once it is, watch out! So now if you think there's no direction try this one. Stick your wet finger in a light socket. What you will find, you can touch the outside bit where the bulb screws in all day long and nothing happens. Why? Isn't is AC? Shouldn't you get a shock either way? No! Because the electrons do not flow from that one. Because they do have direction after all you will only get shocked touching the one at the bottom. Electricians by convention (something they all agree to) use black for hot, the one from which electrons flow, and white for neutral, the direction they take on their journey back to ground. I've tried to keep this tech talk low key and easy to understand. Not that it really matters. Anyone can hook up a wire, listen, swap ends and listen again. You've done that, right? You didn't just assume, did you? Did you??! Say, which direction is the hydro dam from your house? Do you power the dam? Or does the dam power your house? So which direction ... aww nevermind. |
Mr. ieales I know music is AC. Those who claimed that their cables are directional don't! What a shame... On the analysis, when looking from the Speaker side, back into the Amp's output, through the cables - the Speakers are insignificunt. They are not part of the deal. Now let's take a twist on the subject: You never tried my idea. NEVER! You have no idea what it sounds like. What improvement it does. But you still nugging about every parameter you can grip, just to go against it. Why? Those who tried, still have a pleasant smile on their face and enjoy a way better sound. So what is your mission or drive? |
Mr.
auxinput It is no religion. It is science. Once you will be able to tell the difference between the two, and be willing to try it (religiose won't, scientist would!) you will no longer stand in the shade and go against everything you don't know. You try to say "NO" on something you never tried, nor understand, just because it may collapse your entire world. A world based on superstition and industry lies for decades. |
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Mr.
ieales You are so wrong! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor DF is per definition: "Only the resistive part of the loudspeaker impedance is used. The amplifier output impedance is also assumed to be totally resistive". You want to go into L & C? Go. I'll stick to the rules. As so, R/R = pure number (DF) it reflects a ratio. More than that, if you go deep, you will find out that by looking into the Amp's output, through the Speaker cables, the loudspeaker is irrelevant. The cables do not care what loudspeaker impedance they drives (Z). You really think that all cable makers do Bode plots B4 releasing a new cable? All the sudden, you take a subject ( Speaker cables ) and try to test it, or calculate it, in ways no maker ever did? Good luck with that. Bring it in if you did. By understanding the way it works, you can skip it. Trust me on that. I've told you already what matters: DF and length, to calculate the #AWG. It works 100% of the time. |
Mr. scar972 My say is rock solid. It was tested many times, in person, with a test group in 2018 on Audiogon, and it is still alive on a new thread. Last Sat. I completed a set of cables, #0 AWG / 3m long. I had a demo on Tue. with some Amps: A local made monoblock that we couldn't find it's DF even talking to it's maker! and an H2O with a DF of 1,600. First' I used my own test CD to get the idea how his system sounds. It was with the monoblocks. Than we replaced his cables (9' long #9 AWG) with mine. The sound changed. It had way more details. Its bass got valid, like a sub was added. Clear tight and strong. The mid and highs were became crystal clear. A big smile on the owner's face. We went on listening to some of his favorites (he has 18,000CDs). The impression for him, remained the same. My demo cable sounded better. I left him the cable for a week to enjoy. After, I have another demo coming. Measurement: What is it that you would measure on a speaker cable and why? For me, after doing a vast research, tests and came to my conclusions, it's only the resistance. For thick cables it is difficult to measure and our standard Home DEpot DMM is not good for the tasy. You may need something like this: https://www.avionteq.com/IET-Labs-LOM-510A-Resistance-Bonding-Meters.aspx However, it can easily calculated too. For measuring the DF (if not provided) you may use the AP set: https://www.ap.com/technical-library/measuring-amplifier-damping-factor-with-apx500/ As mostly the DF is given by the Spec or can be revealed by a phone call, the cable's resistance can be taken from this table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Measurements: It is more complex to do a right measurement. Not only you have to know what are you looking for to get, or how to make the measurement, it also must be one, you can repeat and get the same results. You may look for a parameter that is easy to measure, but it's useless. So before you hook a probe and take a measurement, you need to understand what is it that matters and how to get it. Your point: "there is no standard for this stuff, it's whatever sounds good to the listener". Is wrong. I'm saying load, that I can calculated it for each setup. I did. It works every time I do it and that specific cable is connected. You never did, but you still say: "to come on and push a standard on how everyone should choose a speaker cable is absurd". Please try it once and then publish those say. Until then, you need to add; "Things I guess, or never tried". I tried it and I calculate it. It works 100% of the time. |
As the OP, I wanted to see if many were interested in how high-end cable measures, most here are not concerned with it and let their ears be the judge. I believe this is the way it should be. We are in a hobby where everyone defines good differently, we have different equipment, and listening preferences so how would any set of measurements be meaningful. For Mr. @b4icu or anyone else to come on and push a standard on how everyone should choose a speaker cable is absurd. I've seen people preferring 28 gauge magnet wires as speaker cables....so the thicker gauge cable that Mr. b4icu recommends will also have their supporter and some will find their sound appealing, but the majority will fall somewhere in between 0 and 28 gauge. My point is, there is no standard for this stuff, it's whatever sounds good to the listener. For those who have NEVER heard a difference in speaker cables including Mr. @lostinseattle, run two 28awg insulated magnet wire to each speaker (one for positive, one for negative) and see if you can hear a difference compared to your existing cables, it's a very cheap experiment that will let you experience something you never have before. Let me know once you have tried it. |
Lol tk, small changes in speaker position when changing cables? My speakers don’t move at all as they’re not positioned on Teflon. Fiddling with connections? If you haven’t tightened the nut, shame on you. My speaker cables are all standard 8 ft, and yes, there are some differences in gauges in some cases. |
I have a very good friend who actually sells real power distribution systems around the world (think electrical infrastructure for cities of 11 million and then some). If you guys continue with this wire expertise, I will have to call him in for help. I have the same, and they do it for major corporations, major governments, major government facilities, all remaining nameless..etc..and their expertise is in transmission lines, and so on. And they realize that this bears no discussion. That the audio and music fan questions about audio cables are very very real. That the complexity of the question and answer set in ’high end audio’ is very very real. So, strike that one down, unless your buddy really has no idea what he is dealing with or talking about....then by all means..forge ahead! |
1. Because, under carefully controlled conditions, the measurements wouldn't consistently reveal significant differences ... OR 2. ... even if measurements could reveal ~significant differences, it would be too hard to agree on and consistently repeat controlled testing conditions. I suspect the differences some people report, if real, are attributable to changes in length, gauge, or fiddling around with connections. Or to small changes in speaker positions that occur in the process of changing cables. |
Mr.
djones51 So many words, So many posts, so much time put in your says... Did you ever try it? What if I'm right? And I am right. It has records of proof in my previous thread. Just tell me your Amp's DF (not the 10000 BS) and length (not the 4000 feet BS), and what is the # and length of the cables you currently use. |
People get criticized for recommending what they own( why wouldn’t they if they went through a process to determine what’s best for the goals they set?) and for recommending product they don’t own. Also if it’s something they’ve never listened to, but based on lots of info from others posting. We are having discussions, conversations. Most understand that everyone has different likes, so they mention what they think someone might like based on what they said they’re looking for ( or sometimes recommend something completely different just because they like it, whether or not it fits with what was asked for) sometimes having a discussion enlightens us to things we had not considered before, it has sure happened to me. You did say something earlier that intimated no opinions were of value, or at the least most, or so it seemed. Sometimes the way we word things appear different to readers than how we perceived it when we posted it. I’m happy to listen to opinions that are given in good faith ( not ones telling me I’m hallucinating when I hear something) I believe I can get a feel for the basic idea of what to expect from others descriptions, though I did recently buy a guitar amp based on what I heard online and what was posted individuals and professionals. I’d say it’s the first time what I expected and what I heard in person was different. Barely spent any time playing with the settings yet, so jury is still out. |
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I’d be curious to examine the 0/8 interface. If it’s soldered, it’s likely a dry joint. If crimped, an incomplete contact using a fraction of the actual wire gauge. Perhaps it’s a couple of ring terminals with a bolt? Are the cables twisted or spread out as a pair with inconsistent separation giving roller coaster inductance? Care to post the technical details, with photos, b4icu? And, oh yeah, R is least troublesome of LCR. Do the math. |
b4icu, The above was not djones51, but me. Of course, there are very small resistors, even tiny fuse filaments, somewhere along the way. I will let the world continue losing while you continue winning. By the way, your statement to djones51... "Is that comes with an IQ of a single digit?" is worthy of an IQ of your preferred speaker wire gauge. How about learning some manners in communication and developing a little sense of humor while you are making a joke of yourself? |
Mr. djones51 You state: "Not to mention that I am suspicious about the idea of finishing a thick cable with a thin cable and then pretending it is all thick cable." But it is no problem for you, that all the cable length is " a thin cable"? I do not understand that logic! That thin cable, has more functions, than fit a #0 awg into a standard banana plug or spade. It provides a strain relief, As an #8 awg is way more flexible than a #0 awg. It also solves the weight issue you were concerned off. The cable is made well’ so it is very strong and it holds well it’s own weight. No problem with that. I have cables made years ago, still holds as new. As the "thin cable" is very short (4" or less) it’s relative resistance vs. the rest of the 6-10 feet, is negligible. Just for your concern. There are more small resistors when you do the sum: the banana ends, the solderings on ends etc'. |
Something to be said for consistency and conviction. Certainly no farther out there than having metal buckets, crystals, and rocks all over one’s listening room, or spending more on cables than on one’s electronics and speakers. Sort of like gravity, this hobby seems to indiscriminately attract all who fall within its orbit. |