Why high-end cable manufacturers don't post measurements?


I'd like to get your take on why high-end manufacturers don't post measurements? would you like to see how a cable measure before ....does it matter to you?
scar972

Showing 22 responses by b4icu

Mr. audio-union

I’m also in the R&D of technical products since the early 80’s.
I have Analog boards in the IEFCC of the F-16 and more.
The point with Speaker Cables, is that no one ever figured out what should they be like. All use a #12 or #14 awg wire, just because it’s easy to work with, and tell some voodoo tells about why it is special. Well, it's NOT!
Even sport shoes have more variety than that.

The correct way to fit a Speaker Cables is to calculate its resistance value, vs length and the Amp’s DF. As you claim to be an engineer and work in R&D, I assume that every design of your went to a calculation phas, Proof of Design (POD) and a process of Design reviews: PDR, CDP etc’.
This is a simple and most required process to get the right cable at the first attempt. Just as our designs were. I can not imagine an airborne unit to be made and tested as a speaker cable. For an R&D engineer, its a shame.


In Electronics, sometimes the analysis ignore a part, to simplify the circuit and better understand. The same with the next level: System.
With that approach, there are 3 elements in that loop:
Amp (output stage),
Speaker cables (two),
Speaker.

As long as you look into that as a whole loop, the cables become insignificunt. Mostly conductors do not become a part of such analysis, unless its high current or very long (res. value).

Well, in that loop the speaker cables do matter. If replaced, they sound different. As so, the described analysis do not apply.

My way to analyze the circuit, if looking into the Amps output circuitry, through the speaker cables. In such way, the speakers can be ignored.
it is not that they do not exist.
With that approach, you may replace speakers: 8 ohms, 2 ohms, any type, the cables that fit the Amp's DF will be good for all speakers.
If the Amp is replaced, and the new Amps has different DF, it need to be calculated again.
If the DF gets smaller, the same cabe will be good (even not all of its thickness is required). If DF gets higher, the cable shall be replaced to a thicker cable, as calculations recommends.
 



Mr. ieales

You claim that the Audio industry and Audio Testing (Audio Precision) as well as Wikipedia, are all Rubbish.
You know better?

For the sake of this endless argument, what is your explanation to the difference in sound with different speaker cables?
Do you have one?

It is easy to criticize. But what is your theory? What do you have to bring to this discussion table?
Except that you disagree with the entire Audio Industry, testein and  Wikipedia ?



Mr. twoleftears

Belden make so many cables, of different AWG.
Which one is the one for me, for you or for some other?
Which of the data published, is the one (or more) I need to look at to make that choice?
What is my system’s parameter, that would make me pick that one?

As you have no idea, nor others, nor the cable makers including your admired Belden, you offer in every post of yours, What good that data is for you?


Mr.  auxinput

It is no religion. It is science. Once you will be able to tell the difference between the two, and be willing to try it (religiose won't, scientist would!) you will no longer stand in the shade and go against everything you don't know. 
You try to say "NO" on something you never tried, nor understand, just because it may collapse your entire world.
A world based on superstition and industry lies for decades.

Mr. ieales

I know music is AC. Those who claimed that their cables are directional don't! What a shame...
On the analysis, when looking from the Speaker side, back into the Amp's output, through the cables - the Speakers are insignificunt. 
They are not part of the deal.

Now let's take a twist on the subject:

You never tried my idea. NEVER!
You have no idea what it sounds like.
What improvement it does.

But you still nugging about every parameter you can grip, just to go against it.
Why?
Those who tried, still have a pleasant smile on their face and enjoy a way better sound.
So what is your mission or drive?

Mr. djones51

I don't like your jokes:

"My amplifier DF is >10000
My wire distance is 4000 feet."

Is that comes with an IQ of a single digit?
Mr. djones51

You state:

"Not to mention that I am suspicious about the idea of finishing a thick cable with a thin cable and then pretending it is all thick cable."

But it is no problem for you, that all the cable length is " a thin cable"?
I do not understand that logic!

That thin cable, has more functions, than fit a #0 awg into a standard banana plug or spade.
It provides a strain relief, As an #8 awg is way more flexible than a #0 awg.
It also solves the weight issue you were concerned off.
The cable is made well’ so it is very strong and it holds well it’s own weight. No problem with that. I have cables made years ago, still holds as new.

As the "thin cable" is very short (4" or less) it’s relative resistance vs. the rest of the 6-10 feet, is negligible. Just for your concern. There are more small resistors when you do the sum: the banana ends, the solderings on ends etc'.
Mr. glupson

Dayan was a big art (archaeology) thief. Mayby, the bigger in Israel ever.

Well, cables recommended did have a larger than common cross section.
Yes, it is a bit tricky to connect such a cable to the Amp and Speakers binding posts. But it is solvable. There are plenty of ways, most involve a short tail, of a less thick cable (like # 8 awg).
The difficulty should not be an obstacle in your way to get better sound.
Really better.
The #14 or #12 awg cables (most of them in the speakers cable market), are convenient to work with, but they do not do the job and do not sound good.
Mr. ieales

To many words to say nothing!
Ok. 
" It depends on the system. Some systems will confound the most skilled listeners. Some systems are relatively immune to cable effects. Other combinations are like flipping a switch."

Which systems do sound different and which don't?
Why is that? What parameter of the system make the difference?
The truth is that you don't know.
I DO.

For the other guy, who claim that a cable length is a measurement, or it's gauge. Would you buy a car with that kind of information?

Mr. glupson

We had a general, who later became a minister. His name was Moshe Dayan. He had a patch on one eye. It was a joke that one day he drove his car, he saw a nice lady at the road side and blinked to her.He ended up in the ditch.
You are one eye folded, and when it get's out of your league, you close your other eye?
No, not only #0 awg.
Look at my thread:  How to select a good Speaker Cable  
and you will find out that a guy called Mr.  keppertup doubled his older # 0 awge to 2x 0 AWG and it sounds even better.
You stick a #0 awg cable as a solution for all, at a time it's not!
You ignore my say, you ignore the results and you are heading the ditch...

No measurements?
Those guys don't understand the product, the requirements, the way it works, what cable is required for each system...They know nothing.
On the other hand, they spread false information, about cables properties, as directional, skin effect, geometry, copper purity etc'. None is relevant. When looking deep into those claims, they hide ignorance and deception. 

So what matters:

A cables resistance equals to the elements constant (copper) multiplied  by length (m) divided by cross section in mm2.
That resistance (R) should be in relation with the Amp's output resistance (Ro) or it's other name: Damping Factor (DF). 

The manufacturers never said a word about it. 
So what kind of measurements should they do and provide information about?
Mr. millercarbon

The way to make that choice, of 6' or 8' is the distance between your Amp. and speakers. 
What the speaker cable manufacturer has to with it?
Mr. glupson

It’s obvious that you have nothing smart to say, so you use derogatory language.
#0 or #00 or #000, yes. Most cables out there are #12 - #14 awg and are insufficient for higher DF SS Amps.
Yes, they are cheap to make and easier than doing a #0 awg cable.
I just made one this Sat. It is difficult to work with such a cable (#0 awg). I had to fight with it a half day to get it done.
Also materials are more expensive. They waight 1.85 kg. each (x4).
Design issues. A MIL STD or airborne unit MUST go through some maticolouse design phases. It shall assure a perfect product.
The way today speaker cables are made, is the worst. Nothing is professional. A big shame for all involved.

Mr.  glupson

I do not hide. I didn't see any reason to keep fighting there not friendly dealers at a time no more were interested to try it.
I'd returned and will as many times as I like. Any problems with that?
If Amp's DF is high, at 9' length, a #0 or #00 is required.
So suggest the calculation, so it improves the sound.
I wonder, how come you never tried it, and still keep nugging. 
Do it (DIY) and then come back and say your say.


Mr.  glupson

You think convient over right. this is the way most losers think.
Cables "look" professional..."
Who look at those? they lay behind and accumulate dust. Who care what they look like. Buy a nice picture and hang it on the wall to look at.
What do they sound like?
Well, maybe it's time for you to try it once. 
It might be like SEX. Stop talking about it, DO IT. it's way more fun. trust me on that.
What is your Amp's DF?
Mr.  djones51

So many words, So many posts, so much  time put in your says...
Did you ever try it?
What if I'm right?
And

I am right.

It has records of proof in my previous thread.
Just tell me your
Amp's DF (not the 10000 BS) and
length (not the 4000 feet BS), and
what is the # and length of the cables you currently use.


Mr. scar972

My say is rock solid. It was tested many times, in person, with a test group in 2018 on Audiogon, and it is still alive on a new thread. 

Last Sat. I completed a set of cables, #0 AWG / 3m long. I had a demo on Tue. with some Amps: A local made monoblock that we couldn't find it's DF even talking to it's maker! and an H2O with a DF of 1,600.
First' I used my own test CD to get the idea how his system sounds.
It was with the monoblocks. 
Than we replaced his cables (9' long #9 AWG) with mine.
The sound changed. It had way more details. Its bass got valid, like a sub was added. Clear tight and strong. The mid and highs were became crystal clear. A big smile on the owner's face.
We went on listening to some of his favorites (he has 18,000CDs).
The impression for him, remained the same. My demo cable sounded better.
I left him the cable for a week to enjoy. After, I have another demo coming. 

Measurement:
What is it that you would measure on a speaker cable and why?

For me, after doing a vast research, tests and came to my conclusions, it's only the resistance. For thick cables it is difficult to measure and our standard Home DEpot DMM is not good for the tasy.
You may need something like this:  https://www.avionteq.com/IET-Labs-LOM-510A-Resistance-Bonding-Meters.aspx
However, it can easily calculated too.
For measuring the DF (if not provided) you may use the AP set:
https://www.ap.com/technical-library/measuring-amplifier-damping-factor-with-apx500/
As mostly the DF is given by the Spec or can be revealed by a phone call, the cable's resistance can be taken from this table: 
https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Measurements:
It is more complex to do a right measurement. Not only you have to know what are you looking for to get, or how to make the measurement, it also must be one, you can repeat and get the same results.
You may look for a parameter that is easy to measure, but it's useless.
So before you hook a probe and take a  measurement, you need to understand what is it that matters and how to get it.

Your point: "there is no standard for this stuff, it's whatever sounds good to the listener". Is wrong.
I'm saying load, that I can calculated it for each setup. I did. It works every time I do it and that specific cable is connected.

You never did, but you still say: "to come on and push a standard on how everyone should choose a speaker cable is absurd".

Please try it once and then publish those say. Until then, you need to add; "Things I guess, or never tried".
I tried it and I calculate it. It works 100% of the time.






Mr.  ieales

You are so wrong!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor
DF is per definition: "Only the resistive part of the loudspeaker impedance is used. The amplifier output impedance is also assumed to be totally resistive".
You want to go into L & C?
Go.
I'll stick to the rules. 
As so, R/R = pure number (DF) it reflects a ratio.

More than that, if you go deep, you will find out that by looking into the Amp's output, through the Speaker cables, the loudspeaker is irrelevant.  
The cables do not care what loudspeaker impedance they drives (Z).

You really think that all cable makers do Bode plots B4 releasing a new cable? 
All the sudden, you take a subject ( Speaker cables ) and try to test it, or calculate it, in ways no maker ever did? Good luck with that. Bring it in if you did.

By understanding the way it works, you can skip it. Trust me on that.
I've told you already what matters: DF and length, to calculate the #AWG.
It works 100% of the time.

Mr. teo_audio

Unfortunately, the article you linked to, is a lot of none relevant BS.
I lost it when I came across the "burn in". The only explanation for that with a copper cable is that it doesn’t sound good, and the salesman try to postpone the return, by convincing with the longer listening, the cable will brake in and sound better. I don’t know of how many that helped, but lately it is no more a hit among Audiophiles. They got a wake up call from their common sense. A genuine miracle. 
The article gives no definite answer what cable I (or you or anybody else) need. So you sent me read a long article with a dead end. That was the case when I started reading. What a waste of time.

There is a methode, but it won’t be cut into stone, as all cable makers will oppose it, to protect their markets, manufacturing methods and sales buzzwords. It won’t happen. Some of their representatives are those who are my strong opposers. 

As I claim, there is a methode. Not everybody need to like the results. From what I’d learn, most do ! (9 out of 10).
They about to approve the COVID-19 vaccine, for less success (6/10).
I hope for the health of all, that we get a better than that result from tests.
Regarding my methode and speaker cables, 9 out of 10 is good enough for me. No one will die from the 1q10 that won't like my way. 


Mr. rilbr

Why do you say: " The trouble is no set of measurements directly tells the consumer how well the cable will sound"?
Please say I don't know about such measurements.
It's even worst, as you do not know what is it that makes one cable sound better over the other.
So what spec. you would look at (if published) and how would you know, by that spec. what cable to buy?

Don't worry. I know. 
DIY is a good idea. But what is the cable that you need? what is the parameter to look for and have in that cable?

The bad part is, that the cable makers not only do not provide much information about their products, but they don't know what is in that cable, that should be significant. So sad...