Why don't you like Mageplanar speakers?

Charles1dad, what Maggies have you heard? Your description sounds very different in some respects than my own impression, e.g., realism? As Jonathan Valin just said of the 20.7's, "The listeners for whom the 20.7's are very nearly ideal--for whom Magneplanars have always been ideal--are those seeking the absolute sound. These Maggies' magical ability to transport listeners to a different space and time and to there realistically recretate (with lifelike scope and size) the sound of acoustic instruments and the venue they were recorded in is extraordinary." I think most people would second that, while agreeing with some of your other objections, e.g., limited dynamics. Kinda makes me wonder what you've heard, and where.

"As well as they did many things, realistic bass with "slam" was not one of them."

Photon, ever here the Tympanis? Near-dynamic slam and extension, combined with planar naturalism. Overall, it was the best bass I've ever heard. Of course, they aren't made any more.

Ditto for rock and roll, my 1-D's would rock out. A friend measures 120 dB+ SPL's on his IV's, which is more than all but the largest dynamics can manage.

For those with the single panel Maggies, a pair of subs will address these issues. Subs sound smeared by comparison to planar bass, but for many the tradeoff is worth it, and it's the same bass you'd be getting with a dynamic setup.

Size I don't know how to fix. :-)

Doug, as you say, all speakers have shortcomings. I think JV summed up very well what I and many others have always loved about Maggies. But I don't think anyone would suggest that dynamics can't go deeper, that horns don't have better dynamics, or that stats don't have better midrange clarity.

My point was that judging by the comments, some people aren't familiar with what large planars, fully powered and properly set up, can do, e.g., the Tympanis or the big Apogees. A friend measures SPL's of over 120 dB in his listening seat with his Tympani IV's, which are good down to 30 Hz (he has 2500 watts on the bass panels). These are planars that really can rock out, and have bass extension that would be the envy of all but the very largest dynamics.

Also, most of the people I know who have the smaller single panel Maggies use subs, as you would with a smaller dynamic.

Dracule, please note what I said about the Valin comment -- "I think most people would second that, while agreeing with some of your other objections." I wasn't commiting a fallacy of authority; I quoted JV merely because he had said, elegantly and concisely, what I and many others I've spoken to have said over the years (and I'd just seen the quote in the latest TAS).

Since this is almost the main strength of Maggies, one that impresses everyone I've ever played them for, I was puzzled by Charles1dad's statement that dynamics offer more realism and transparency, when I think most would agree that very few do. In my experience, people who make these comments often haven't heard Maggies set up properly. That's why I asked.

Whereas other criticisms I've seen here -- limited slam, bass, low WAF, disontinuity between the ribbon and other drivers -- all make sense to me. Or if he'd said that stats are more transparent.

In any case, it wasn't about Valin's authority as a reviewer, although I've read enough of his loudspeaker reviews to know that he hears the same things I do -- which, to me, is the hallmark of a reviewer whose ears I can trust (since I think it highly unlikely that we would notice the same things purely by chance). This isn't the same thing as a value judgment, just the ability to hear and describe fairly subtle sonic characteristics, such as the "snare drum" self noise someone mentioned.

Charles1dad,

According to Wendell Diller at Magnepan, the reason Maggies aren't more efficient is that neodynium magnets would cost the buyer more than a more powerful amplifier. That being said, they'll work perfectly well for most people with an amp of moderate power. If you want 115 dB SPL's out of them, well, then you'll need a big amp. But most people don't listen at those levels.

Devilboy, Magnepan is one of the largest high end speaker manufacturers, with over 100,000 sold. If so many things had to line up for them to work, that wouldn't be the case. As it happens, few of us have setups that are ideal for Maggies, or for any speaker. But they do quite beautifully even without, indeed, like other line source dipoles, they are less sensitive to room acoustics and require less room treatment (the flip side being that they're more sensitive to careful room setup).

If the 20.7's sounded bad, it was the dealer setup. Period. Nobody who has heard them has had anything but raves. Dealer setups are a chronic problem with Maggies, they almost never sound right.

I suggest you listen under better circumstances. They won't work close to a wall, no dipole will. Those who can't pull them out should get boxes -- most boxes aren't at their best against a wall either, but they do better than dipoles -- or a dipole that's specially designed to be used on a wall, like the Magnepan on-walls or the Wisdom in-walls.

It's also worth noting that there are planar magnetics that do use neodynium ribbons and give you amazingly high efficiencies, like the Wisdoms and Graz's Apogees. However, one look at the price of these and most people will gasp and go back to the Maggies and a more powerful amp.

Magnepan does use neodynium magnets in some models, where nothing else will do the job.