Why do turntables sound different?


Let's consider higher-end tables that all sound excellent. Same arm/cartridge and the rest of the chain. Turntable is a seemingly simple device but apparently not quite or not at all.
What do members of the 'scientific community' think?
inna

Showing 10 responses by has2be

They sound different for two reasons.

1/  The design choices of suspended, lightweight or mass and                implementation of materials choice and the drive method used.


                                                                                                               
2/  The use in the home environment from either proper, or poor set  up, in both basic parameters and adjustment ,and final placement.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    




The bearing design comes into play , after the design of the table and materials and lower or higher mass are given. Then the appropriate bearing is designed for those criteria and used to suit specific scenario. Look at the mass and close tolerance of a micro seiki bearing , and the lead impregnated lube it utilizes for a massive platter and mass record weight ability. You wouldn't use it to spin a rega platter. Even the lubricant on some tables is chosen to offer more friction with the intention it will help with speed stability (+ - drag). As long as the bearing can carry the load upon it, and do it effortlessly with no chatter/vibration, the motor and the power supply will champion or fail the best of tables. Its not about speed accuracy , your ears are much more agile at spotting fluctuation than a steady slight slow or fast rpm. Where the belt rides in relation to the bearing/spindle point is more critical than some tables / owners realize as well.
It all , still , like it or not boils down to the materials chosen as a whole, the design to implement them and the drive used. No matter how much more is spent for better materials, higher quality of machining parts, tighter tolerances and better power supplies/motors and esoteric materials better suited at rejecting vibrations,
and tone arms ......it still is at the mercy of the home environment and the ability of the end user to make it sound "different". Different in these terms would be to that specific user as being "better" as the reason of personal choice.
However, if that user is not truly skilled at set up of the table, the arm , its placement and the treatment of the room the previous means nothing.

As I said in my prior post before, there are 2 reasons. The biggest reason IMO and IME for "different sound " is the end user him/her self. These days many dealers lack real skill with set up . The designers build tables to cost and sound how they think is best (different) . Different is simply the factors of personal taste for looks and sound as well as individual price points of choice.
You don't need a scientist to tell you if a chunk of aluminum will ring louder and for longer than a slab of panzerholz.
I would suggest that quiet bearings would HAVE to be low in friction, period. The greater the friction the higher the noise. Greater tolerances also lead to higher noise levels. The lubricant will aid in reducing friction between two surfaces, but in thicker forms can raise drag in a design (flaw) that may require such to lessen fluctuation noticeability and to lessen the effects of greater tolerances , i.e. , grease. The platter needs to drain, not reflect back to the cartridge.

Your Spacedeck, of the few I have personally heard is more a lively sound with good detail with the cartridges that were installed on them. Heavier mass tables sometimes (not always, try to avoid generalizing as their are always exceptions) don’t play the subtle details as forward that gives the appearance to some as slow. But to the next guy, they sound correct. One thing to remember, ears don’t function the same from person to person. That’s why we have choices of different styles and sound and what music type will also have a factor in the equation of choice as well.


I think your looking at it the wrong way. The quality of the bearing and its ability to carry weight and force quietly and effortlessly, and the drive system to move it will determine platter weight limits. Mass isn't really thought of just in the platter. Mass is usually describing the weight of the plinth required to counter the force a heavier platter spinning creates from that heavy platter. Materials used will determine how it may resonate / and how it will be dealt with. Some suspended tables actually have reasonably thick/heavy platters such as a Michell Orbe SE but many "mass" non suspended tables have very, very heavy platters that require a much heavier foundation as a platform for that spinning mass and may even require a push to start before its own weight takes over.
Cost will always have the biggest determination over choice of materials and design when someone wants to build something and bring it to market. The better materials and the combination of layering/ joining/ machining a quality , balanced platter can be quite costly. As far as the "sound" goes, perhaps you should think of how easy it is to f it all up with a mat placed on it, or how a lesser platter can be tamed with a better choice of mat. Knowing what "sound" you want usually can steer you to the type of table you should be moving toward, not the other way around.
@terry9

I couldn’t disagree more. Your advocating in a turntable of all things that a higher level of friction in its bearing will not create more noise and vibration and the two are not related ? Sorry that’s ridiculous in my view. The whole idea of a bearing is to reduce friction between two surfaces. The better the bearing, the lower the friction and the quieter it spins, period. The best bearings for turntables have tighter tolerances in shaft and ball thus reduced friction AND quieter operation . Friction, that leads to vibration and noise and wear no matter how its dissipated between heat (leads to loss of lubrication , wear and premature failure),... and dissipated as sound, really, below a vibrating stylus that gets amplified about 800 times. Quiet and lower friction in this application go hand in hand. Do you actually suggest that higher friction in a turntable bearing won’t create and amplify vibrations, which is odd since reducing those energies from even being seems to be more a desire than fixing or ignoring its correlation. Most of the best turntables have bearings that certainly are both ruthlessly quiet AND as frictionless as possible. Slightest push and they spin effortlessly for far longer and with less need for the motor, also reducing noise. They reduce it at source , thus the platter and its design is even more effective.

@terry9

No , I have not made categorical statements about how "all" bearings work.
I have specifically spoke and used turntable applications with a completely different complexity for use and will not be found in your internet search’s in the generalities of bearing applications from manufacturing sites . The bearing on a turntable is a special consideration and YES , I have made it clear , that the reduction in friction and noise at point source where the bearing contacts IS the ideal. Not an after thought of hit and miss band aids.
The general information your referring to is good to use as a reference. However, bearings in machinery with moving parts are easily reduced of vibration at the point its fastened to the machines frame/body (think plinth) with dampening materials where vibration is the ONLY focus.
You cannot do that with a turntable without not only reducing vibrations, but ALSO deadening/altering the sound. All the physics talk and research you have done , cannot change the fact, the noise and vibration starts at the point of contact where movement is. Everything after that is not the source to remove it, only a band aid to help lessen its origin. That’s common sense. The platter not only sits on but is directly joined to the bearing, with a diamond vibrating on it reading tiny vibrations in the grooves of a record above is simply not the same criteria that bearings for most any other use have . Its apples and oranges .
Stopping vibration from getting to the bearing is not the same as stopping from emitting from the bearing. A turntable is kind of like a seismograph reading the grooves so sitting it on a noisy spinning bearing will not result in anything close to distortion free/less sound.
Since the stylus needs to vibrate free of any interference , even its own not being reflected back how anyone could think friction and noise aren’t related in a turntable bearing is beyond me. Quiet and very low friction are one and the same for a turntable bearing as I hear it. The bearing that some think is quiet even with higher friction , ....after its amplified about 800 times it becomes, sound, sound that distorts or masks the sound you want free of such . That amount of multiplication is harmful to the desired results. 

@lewm

I brought the drag up in a earlier post above, and the grease /impregnated lubes myself. I see it as a flaw and noted that. The drag concept may of been a band aid for cogging but I humbly disagree that friction does not produce noise or that higher friction is as quiet as something with less friction when used in this application. Tighter tolerances, and reduced friction is more desirable to me than an out of round ball/shaft with a wearing surface of greater contact and surface that resembles the moon. Lubrication is made more effective as well on a smaller tighter tolerance contact also. Sorry no offence , I just won’t accept what I sure wouldn’t pay for. No disrespect to any of you.....
@terry9 

and  the Micro Seiki RX 5000 I bought new, then sold about 15 years ago and recently bought back  two months ago , with its bearing in its original lube untouched or opened still moving a 36 pound platter effortlessly and quietly as the day I originally bought it new decades ago,... it gives me reason to not really concern myself with what leaves you unconvinced, biased or unable to accept . I use the proof every day , Even the well executed  inverted bearing in my Orbe Se for a lighter suspended table shows the rewards of a quieter and low friction design and well made bearing. Any of the over 40 tables I have owned or built over the last 4+ decades that shined the best to me, had better built , quieter low friction bearings.  Those that were not as close, needed massaging to reduce  the noise, lesser point of fulcrum contacts make, as well as other poor designs and sources of noise. 
"lubrication is made more effective as well on a smaller tighter tolerance contact also"


^^^ actually, I think I said that , in response to lewm on the first page...

and the tighter tolerances in engines and lighter oils is actually one of the many reasons I feel strongly on this point and why better bearings are both lower in friction and self noise..... These new engines run so smooth now its almost mandatory to have an exhaust specifically built to add a "note" so it sounds masculine...........
"I think most manufacturers have no idea what they are doing and why? They buy some parts, think they are good enough because they get praise from people who also have no idea from anything"...

@syntax 

Sorry, no offence, but.... IMHO.....
That's the most "over" generalized statement I have read in some time....
It also implies, no one else knows what you do, to be able to criticize "most".
Below is a good part of most, and none, IMO, fall into your shade...
Sure some have other current makes to add as well..........let alone the brands of the past .....
Some not mentioned may well fall into your generalization but the word "most" is a gross over reach.............and price has nothing to do with a statement that uses "most" when it comes to turntables .

Acoustic Signature
AMG
Basis
Brinkman
Continuum
Davinci
Dr. Freickert
Forsell
Grand Prix
JA Michell
JC Verdier
Kuzmo
Kronos
Linn
Oracle
Rocksan
Simon Yorke
SME
Sota
Schick
Tech Das
Transrotor
Technics
TW Acoustics
Walker
Well Tempered
Vyger


Dear @rauliruegas ,
No offence, given or taken, but......

I firmly stand by my statement and the reason for it. Wealth and ownership of anything in life , has nothing to do with gross, over generalized statements on/ about anything or anyone, period.
I don't see it as insult , it is just a very narrow and short sighted
path to dismiss the few, with the wide brush of  "most"....

Regards to you as well, and again....
no offence given or taken. Cheers...............