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Why do these Zyx Fuji and Airy 3 have such a dark sound?

Hi everybody.
I only have around 24 hours for this, so I’m posting this last minute. Sorry about this. I’ve also posted this on Vinyl Engine.
Before I go into details, this is my question:

To anybody who owns a Zyx R100 Fuji S or a R1000 Airy 3 X (or similar models), does your cartridge sound "dark" like I describe below (a big dip in the treble)? Sound clips are provided at the end.


Okay, here I go. This is long, so I hope you can cope with all the details, as they are necessary:

I have these two cartridges on loan (and I have to return them tomorrow) because I had previously downloaded vinyl rips done with these two carts, and I really, really liked the sound of those vinyl-rips. The carts seemed quite accurate and neutral and as if they had a fairly flat frequency response and without harshness, which is what I was looking for: Not a "typical" dark MM sound, nor a "typical" bright MC sound either.

So, this is where the trouble starts:
The downloads don’t sound like the recordings I’ve made myself with the same carts! Some people call Zyx carts too bright, but it’s as if the treble is missing on my recordings when I compare to the downloads. It’s possible that I just don’t like these carts after all, but it’s strange that the downloads all have the same sound signature even though they’re from different uploaders using different systems, which would indicate that nothing would have gone wrong in the recording or uploading process.

I think there are four possible explanations to what I describe below:
1: My recordings sound like these carts are supposed to sound like, and I just don’t like them.
2: Something has gone wrong in all of the downloads I mention.
3: None of the phono stages used for the vinyl-rips I mention follow the riaa curve, but are all top-heavy by several dB.
4: All three Zyx carts (yes, three, see further down) are faulty

So, I’m wondering if I’m doing anything wrong, or I can adjust some settings to achieve the same sound as the vinyl-rips I downloaded. I feel like I have literally tried EVERYTHING there is to try. I read that Zyx carts are very sensitive to setup, but no matter what I’ve done, the sound hasn’t changed, except for a slight change in channel balance. I’ll elaborate about this further down. One thing I did notice was that both the Fuji and the Airy were very loud when I stood next to the turntable and listened to them play "acoustically".
Yesterday, I took the Airy to an acquaintance’s place and tried it on his turntable, which was an old Thorens with a Mørch UP4 tonearm. He used PSB Imagine T2 Tower speakers. We both agreed that the recordings done on my setup were identical to how it sounded on his setup, except maybe that there was a slight speed discrepancy.

Here I can also interject that I’ve also been trying out a Goldring 2500 cart at the same time, and that was too bright for me, and even brighter than certain digital 16/44.1 kHz masters that the records had been cut from. So trying that cart, as well as trying the Zyx on my acquaintance’s setup, would rule out that there’s something wrong with my turntable or preamps.

And the last aspect that can rule out that my equipment is the problem is this: Before borrowing the carts, I went to the shop and made a recording (with my own phono preamp with its built-in convert) of the new Zyx Ultimate 100 on their setup, which I’m quite certain was an Acoustic Signature Wow XL or XXL turntable with an Acoustic Signature TA-1000 tonearm. That recording was even darker than the one done with the Fuji on my own setup. The shop also said that the Fuji was a bit brighter than the Ultimate 100.

I use my headphones and Foobar’s ABX plugin to compare my own recordings with the vinyl-rips I downloaded, so even if my headphones were broken, I would be able to hear the difference between my own recordings and the downloads (like I could at my acquaintance’s place yesterday).

Here’s my setup:
* Sennheiser HD650 headphones
* Rega RP3 with an RB-303 tonearm (2013 model)
* NAD PP-4 phono preamp
* Parasound Zphono preamp
* Also a Soundsmith MCP2 MC phono preamp with adjustable ohm loading that the shop lent me. I’ve ONLY used this on the Airy. When loaded with 100 ohm, like the NAD and the Parasound, the only difference I could hear between the Soundsmith and the NAD, was that the Soundsmith was a bit darker sounding. The Parasound is also a bit darker than the NAD. Feel free to read the excellent measurements of the NAD PP-3 on Stereophile’s website. The maximum deviation from the riaa curve is 0.25 dB. When increasing the ohm load to 1000 ohm on the Soundsmith, the treble became more prominent but still not to the same extent as on the downloads. After 1000 ohm it didn’t seem to change any further. At 10 ohm I didn’t hear any difference to 100 ohm. It just seemed strange to me that I had to increase the ohm load that much, when 100 ohm is the standard and when I read that people use less than that for Zyx. Also, the phono stages used in the downloads are not all able to even go to 1000 ohm (nor was it mentioned that the ohm load was that high). I am of course aware that comparing to a random download is not the perfect way to do it, but still… As mentioned, all the downloaded vinyl-rips have the same sound signature.
* Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 A/D converter
* Objective2 + ODAC headphone amp and DAC
I’ve recorded with both the Focusrite converter and the built-in converter in the NAD and I couldn’t tell them apart in an ABX test.

So, these are the settings I’ve been experimenting with:
* Protractors: I’ve printed three protractors: The Baerwald and Stevenson protractors from Vinyl Engine, as well as the Arc Template Generator that Conrad Hoffman made (I used Bearwald for that one as well). I couldn’t hear any difference on any of them, except for one recording with a slight difference. I’ve also tried pushing the cart 1 mm forward or 1 mm back, pushing it all the way forward into the headshell or pulling it all the way back, turning it a bit towards the spindle, or turning it away from the spindle. It didn’t make a difference except for a bit on the channel balance. With my Rega Exact cart I passed blind tests between a Baerwald adjustment and the "factory" setting with three screws (the Baerwald was brighter). In the shop, they adjusted the Ultimate 100 with a Dr. Feickert protractor.
* VTA: I could hear a small difference, but big enough to pass a blind test, between a recording where I raised the arm 6 mm, and one where I put two records beneath the mat, so it would be very much tail down. However, not much of a difference. I also heard the same difference with the Goldring (raised was brighter).
* Counterweight. I’ve tried going from 1,50 grams up to 2,50 grams. I’ve tried Art Salvatore’s recommended 1,85 grams, the recommendation of 1,95 grams from another, 1,79 grams, and pleeeeenty of other combinations, but I would mostly use 2,00 grams. No difference.
* I’ve tried to loosen the screws that bolt the cart to the arm a bit. No difference.
* I’ve used a bubble level to check azimuth (I then adjusted my arm a bit). No difference.

Lastly, you might think that the carts just need to break in. I thought so too, although I’ve always been a bit sceptical about break-in. Anyway, the Airy already had some play on it, and I was actually given another Fuji to try out, and it was well-used, but that one sounded even a bit darker (just worn, really). On top of this, the way I understand break-in is that before a cart is broken in, it will sound harsh and bright – the opposite of what is the case here. But if Zyx carts get a more prominent treble after breaking in, if breaking-in even exists, then this could be the explanation.

So, on to the sound clips:

I have uploaded the following clips recorded with the following equipment (all of my recordings are done with the Focusrite converter), and yes, the albums are all the same editions from the same countries (I always make sure of that):

1: AC/DC "Rock or bust", done with my Rega, the NAD preamp and the Zyx Airy, then the same setup but with the Soundsmith set to 1000 ohm, then the CD, which I believe is the same master used for cutting the record, then the vinyl-rip that I downloaded, which sounds quite close to the CD, done with the following equipment: Micro Seiki DD-8 + ZYX R100 Fuji S, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube Preamp (Telefunken tubes 3xE88CC), TASCAM HS-P82. Lastly, a vinyl-rip download to compare, recorded with a Micro Seiki DDX-1000 / Micro Seiki MA-505L, Benz Micro Ruby Gullwing SHR, Past Audio C-7Super (Deluxe Edition), and M-Audio ProFire 610.

2: Marilyn Manson "Deep six" (from "The Pale Emperor"), my own recording with the Airy and NAD, then also with the Zyx Fuji and NAD, then done with my Rega Exact cartridge and NAD (I did, however, adjust the channel balance on my computer, as it was off, partly because the cart was made that way, and partly because the arm on my own turntable at the time was not mounted completely straight), then the recording from the shop done with the Zyx Ultimate 100 and NAD (detailed above). I had to adjust the channel balance here as well. And then lastly two vinyl-rips I downloaded, done with the following: 1: Pioneer PL-7L + ZYX R100 Fuji X, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube preamp + Tascam HS-P82. 2: Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Trilogy 907, Korg MR-1000. These two downloads sound quite similar.

3: Chris de Burgh "Take it to the top" (from "Man on the line"), my own recording with the Airy and NAD, then a vinyl-rip download done with a Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Sentec/Nebula (A), and Korg MR-1000.

4: Queen "Self-titled" (re-release on Fame) my own recording with the Airy and NAD, and a vinyl-rip download done with Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Sentec/Nebula (A), and Korg MR-1000.

5: Mastodon "Black tongue" (from "The Hunter") my own recording with both a Fuji and an Airy and the NAD, and then with an Airy and the Soundsmith set to 1 kOhm, and then a vinyl-rip download made with Micro Seiki DD-8+ZYX R100 Fuji SH, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube Preamp (Telefunken).

LASTLY, since I figured that most of you wouldn’t have any of these albums, I have included recordings of two albums you might have, so you could compare:

Dire Straits "Brothers in arms" and "On every street" (both original EU prints).

I only have my own recordings of these, but I know that they’re both cut from digital 44.1 kHz masters, and my recordings are not very close to the CDs. The Goldring cart was brighter than the CDs, since it seemed to have a big spike in the treble.

So, here are the downloads:
https://mega.nz/#!dMZzmQxL!NnJaOtkx281lunKjeRpwSTmkKa8CUYuaEoVehKiyy-k

I hope this doesn’t sound offensive, but I’ll just say this to avoid any potential arguments and that people waste their time writing a lot of things: As you might have noticed, I’m a no-nonsense guy, so please no suggestions like "digital is crap", "you’re deaf", "buy a different turntable", or "buy brand X phono stage" or "buy new interconnects" or "buy a Nordost power cord" or "these carts are not good for that type of music" or whatever, because it’s besides the point, I’m not going to buy any of that, and I’m not I even going to debate it.

Anyway, I appreciate any and all help :-).
Thanks, and thanks for reading through all this!
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Showing 6 responses by lewm

lewm
12,451 posts
 

Azimuth adjustment does change the channel balance, ever so slightly for very large changes in azimuth angle. Which means that adjusting azimuth is almost never a good way to correct for channel imbalance, because the stylus tip will end up at a wildly wrong angle to the groove walls, which is bad for everything else. A 3db difference between channels at 10kHz is probably within spec for most cartridges. Channel balance is typically quoted for 1kHz. In the old days, manufacturers would provide a printout showing how channel balance varies with frequency across the audio range. It’s typically greater at 10kHz than at 1kHz. You won’t hear it, and I wouldn’t worry about it.

I was interested to read what JCarr wrote about the effect of temperature.  My second system is in our finished basement where the ambient temp is often in the mid to high 60s, colder in summer because AC leaks into the finished basement from the furnace room, and cold air falls from the upper floors. I guess I’d better install a lamp near the two turntables in that system.

lewm
12,451 posts
 

Your problem is that EE degree.  This is about “feelings”, not measurements.  (I am joking.). In addition to measuring frequency response of the Ultimate, did you also measure the frequency response of some other cartridge that does not appear to display the coloration you perceive with the Ultimate? In other words, a “control” cartridge?  On top of all that, I hope you noticed there was some consensus at the end of the old thread that the latest carbon fiber-cantilevered version of the Ultimate might indeed sound “dull”.  If that is true, and if the cause is the use of CF, then nothing you can do after the fact would correct the tonal balance.

lewm
12,451 posts
 
Jace, You may be with the OP emotionally, but your experience has no bearing on his. After re-reading this thread, because your post bumped it up to the front, I note that no one asked the OP about his Rega turntable. The lesser Rega turntables are known to exhibit speed anomalies, although typically they run a bit fast which makes them sound bright, not dark. And then too he mentioned listening to a Universe in an audio store on a different turntable, with the same feeling of treble lack. I don’t see where he ever stated exactly what cartridges sound “good” to him on his system, for comparison to what he hears with the ZYXs. Like Chakster, II do contend the point about ADA conversion. Even though the theory may predict that differences are inaudible, and regardless of blind tests that have been done, it remains that ADA conversion puts the audio signal through a series of analog circuits that it does not otherwise traverse, in the case where one listens directly to the analog form. Thus even if ADA conversion is per se “perfect”, it is likely to add or subtract from the original A version, just due to imperfections in the analog path that must traverse the D phase. In addition, the OPs system is not one I would choose for making or expecting “perfect” digital copies. I agree with Thom that the 3 popular tonearm geometries should not differ from one another in frequency balance, so trying Stevenson, Lofgren, Baerwald was kind of a side track.

For all I know, the newest versions of the ZYX line, the ones with CF cantilevers, might sound “dark”. I’ve never heard any of them. I am generally not a big fan of CF in audio transducers. But his question was about much older models with boron or whatever other metal cantilevers. Those are NOT dark sounding on a full up analog audio system with speakers, not headphones. Perhaps by now the OP has unpacked his speakers and has heard a difference.
lewm
12,451 posts
 
It’s too late to edit my post above, but, for example...
Chakster, The OP is not saying that the ZYX cartridges are dark sounding. He is asking WHY they sound dark to him, via his digital copies of LPs played through his headphones. He seems to recognize that something is "off", in order for the cartridges to sound as they do to his ears, in his set-up. The experience in his home system, such as it is, differs from his experience when he first auditioned the cartridges on some other rig. Or on his own rig but digitized by someone else. (I am not sure which.)

To anyone else, I don't see where the OP ever stated that "digital is better than analog". He is just telling us how he auditioned the two cartridges and that his method is constrained by the fact that part of his system is packed away.  I don't know whether he prefers digital to analog or vice-versa, just from reading his posts, except that he does say that he cannot distinguish any difference between his digital rips of LP content and signal derived direct from an LP, in his system.  There are many others who share that opinion, but most persons in that camp are digitizing with more expensive stuff, not to say better stuff.

To the OP, in all your ensuing responses, when you describe your listening experiences, were they ALL based on listening to digitized copies of one LP or another, regardless of all other variables? In other words, have you ever heard either cartridge directly via an all analog pathway?

Maybe the moral of the story is to simplify your question before posting.
lewm
12,451 posts
 
The OP and all the responders, including me, are talking past each other. Typical of civil discourse in the age of the cell phone.
i feel sorry for all of us.
lewm
12,451 posts
 
Try a 47K ohm load.  It's really impossible for a third party to make your diagnosis, because we don't know how your system ensemble sounds or what you really mean when you say "dark".  This is not your fault, necessarily.  It's just that none of us can be in your listening room with you.  As you say, ZYX cartridges are generally NOT "dark" sounding.

Please confirm or dispute my summary of the very long post:
(1) You are auditioning these cartridges based on the fact that you listened to vinyl rips made from them.  By "vinyl rips", I presume you mean digital copies.
(2) You are now comparing your own digital copies made from LPs played in your system, and the digital copies are dark sounding.

I really have not tried to read every word of your post, but by scanning it, I don't see that you have made any comment about how the cartridges sound when you actually listen to the analog output direct from your system.  One question would be, how does the direct analog sound compared to the original digital copies that caused you to want to audition the cartridges?  Why are you confining yourself to a comparison of digital to digital?  Or am I missing something?

Sometimes, even LOMC cartridges sound more open, more extended in the treble, when you reduce the resistive load, which is why I suggest that you listen at 47K ohms.  If you're using a SUT, you really cannot do that, I know, but you don't list a SUT among your components.
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