Why do subs sound bloated or slow?

I agree that most people don't know how to set up subs properly, but I'm not sure the automatic setup system work any better. They are primarily EQ programs, and do nothing for the transient response. And, frankly, it would be very hard for them to fix transient response because that requires playing the mains and sub(s) at the same time and (usually, because of sub placement and processing delays) delaying the MAINS. The phase control on a sub won't do this either and, to the extent that it is useful at all, can only work when the sub is closer to the listener than the mains.

All of what I'm saying applies to music only. For home theater, it doesn't matter a whole lot if your sub is a full cycle behind the mains. You just need it to be in phase at the crossover point and EQ'ed to avoid the room modes, and it will sound pretty good.

I currently have my subs next to my mains, slightly forward. They are sensitive to movements of one inch. I can play a passage and it will sound right, but if I move the subs an inch forward or back, and it's out, and stays out if I move it farther. In previous setups, I've been able to introduce a delay to the mains relative to the subs (in Pure Music, for example), and I had the same results: the coherence of the sound was sensitive to delays that were a fraction of a millisecond.

So time alignment is crucial, and I don't think the subs will ever be truly integrated in a system until that is achieved. I think once it is tackled, EQ is available to deal with the frequency response of the room. That's my current approach, and I don't think I've sacrificed much, except that there are subwoofers sitting in not-inconspicuous locations in my living room.

Marty, I don't think the effect I described can be reduced to room interaction because, as I said in my earlier post, I can achieve the same result by adjusting the delay of the mains relative to the subs without physically moving anything.

Shadorne, the flaw in your logic is that a movement of my head is not the same thing as an equivalent movement of the sub. I'm arguing that it is important to get the correct time alignment between the subs and the mains, thus the important parameter is the position of the subs *relative* to the mains. Small movements of the sub relative to the mains will affect how the sound combines in their region of overlapping frequencies. If the speaker and the sub are close together (or on the same axis, anyway), even large movements of my head will not affect their relative distances to my ears (only the absolute distance), and thus will not change their time alignment.

This is, in fact, an argument for keeping your subs close to your mains: if the sub is placed off-axis, then small movements of the head will affect the relative distance of the mains and the subs to the ears, altering the coherence of the signal.

Bryon, while I agree with much of what you say, I think room interactions are secondary. The perceived coherence of the signal is going to be primarily determined by the direct waves from the speaker and sub to the ear. Room interactions may be stimulated to a greater or lesser degree depending on the coherence of the signal but, as you point out later in your post, the effects of small changes in position or delay don't seem to show up prominently in plots of frequency response.

Marty, you mention in your response that you had your speakers/subs coplanar. That might not actually result in optimal time alignment depending on a number of factors. In particular, if there is EQ on the subs, that can delay the signal by anywhere from one to several milliseconds. That means your subs might need to be one to several feet closer to your listening position than your speakers for proper time alignment. If you have a means to delay your mains, that's easiest, but otherwise you're stuck moving the subs. There may be other sources of delay, too. But even if there is no delay, the subs may need to be a bit forward or back from the mains. In my case, the optimal position put the subs an inch or so in front of my mains.

Some people may already know this, but there's a neat trick for getting your time alignment close: You flip the polarity of either your mains or your subs (whichever is easier), then play a tone at the crossover frequency (e.g., and 80 Hz tone for an 80 Hz crossover). You then adjust the delay (or sub position) to *minimize* the SPL at the listening position. (You're effectively maximizing destructive interference.) When you're done, you flip the polarity back to normal, and you should be very close to time aligned. From there you can listen to a music passage that spans the crossover frequency and move the subs an inch or so at a time and see what sounds best. If you've moved your subs a lot from their original position, you should probably re-EQ before this last step.

It's a fun Saturday project, even if you can't possibly leave the subs in their final position. And you can let your ears tell you if time alignment matters for your system. In my case, it was a huge difference. As Marty says, YMMV.

Stringreen, sub level is certainly important for proper integration, but turning down the level on a misaligned sub won't solve the problem, it will just make it less noticeable (along with the bass).

Shadorne, I disagree "that you can't perceive accurately what is happening to the bass response except by what it 'masks' in the higher frequencies." If you consider a single frequency around the crossover frequency (say, 80 Hz), it is being played by both the mains and the sub(s). Those outputs will either sum properly, or not, and you can easily hear very small changes in delay. (As an experiment, try playing a constant tone and turning the phase knob on a properly-aligned sub while watching an SPL meter.)

But real signals are the sum of a wide range of frequencies, and the overlap between subs and mains is also across a range of frequencies. Properly aligned, the waveforms will sum together properly, but when misaligned they will smear out the low-frequency information. The effect is plainly audible, and can't be attributed solely to masking.